On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Richard Hayes <richard_hayes29_at_Xo_1UtmdIM8Susu-ZtrOHlqmO5gUccnwxsuTukB5-5pP0kWrUk1jh0tRP12YwBPoP8bR1ui45kHH90qUqhTg4lWeAcbw.yahoo.invalid>wrote:
>
> From: Jeff <richaje_at_3B7KxiZdFsaDESNfNLPfTYPUODPuSADt01qSFxmOqhBscrFFUFyARbDfKF33zmqLYWfVBnvpLuwNYw.yahoo.invalid>
> Subject: Re: S:KoH Nandan?
> To: WorldofGlorantha_at_yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 20:18
>
>
> > Good, that helps us understand. So, is there a cult through which men
> with
> > penises can worship Ernalda, or is wanting to worship Ernalda in the
> first
> > place a sign that they really have been women all along? Put another
> way, what
> > does being a woman mean in your statement? It clearly can't mean
> "someone with
> > female sexual organs", but is a woman someone who acts like women
> typically act,
> > someone who feels she is a woman regardless of how she looks or acts, or
> is
> > there some other way to tell?
>
You are asking an impossible question: good for mythology!!
There is no answer
There are multiple answers
The only real example is *the experience*.
Men worship Ernalda, just as women worship Orlanth. But mere men cannot be
> initiated into Ernalda's mysteries. Otherwise they would be women, not men.
> Only women can be initiated into the Goddess's mysteries, even if barbarians
> and foreign fools think some of those women are men.
> Jeff
>
This statement is almost all true
> If one must be a woman to be initiated into the mysteries of Ernalda, maybe
> one has to be a man to be initiated into the ways of Orlanth?
>
Maybe
> If so, does this mean that Vingans must really be men, despite appearances
> to the contrary? Because Vinga is the way "women" worship Orlanth, just as
> Nandan is the way "men" worship Ernalda (but by so doing, they prove that
> they are women really)
>
> Vingans do men's work, and in many ways are honorary men-- but is that
> really the same thing? I'm not sure I'd like that idea.
>
> In my Glorantha Vinga is not a perfect mirror image of Nandan. Not least
> because some Vingans might follow this path for a while before reverting to
> a more conventional 'Ernalda' role at a later date-- and in my Glorantha it
> is not unnatural for them to do so, as they are moving through the stages
> from Maid to Mother (and later to Crone).
>
> Obviously others will stay Vingans forever, especially if they are "men
> trapped in women's bodies". Whilst a minority pursuit, this is no less
> socially acceptable than marriage.
>
>
That statement is mostly true for me too
Here is the thing: THIS IS NOT DOGMA
When a deity chooses a person/when a person initiates to adulthood The deity reveals itself/a person discovers himself the deity reveals its true form/the person discovers his Self the deity is your Self/the person is his deity
Vinga is an entire spectrum of possibilities,
the kind mother, who would hurt only a fly or a rat, becomes and enraged fiend to defend her children
a career warrior, with her goals set as distant ideals to be achieved the man-hating raging bull dyke who wants to cut the balls off of every male
Nandan is an entire spectrum of possibilities,
the hard warrior, ruthless not reckless, killer of men, lets his newborn child into his heart
a hard-working devoted servant, dedicated to helping her mother along no matter what
a swishing over-the-too fem whore who is on a quest to become pregnant of body
It is just that all of these people, put together, are few in number compared to the total.
Also should Vingans "have relationships" with (other?) men, or with (other?)
> women. Even if they don't marry, that doesn't necessarily commit them to
> celibacy (which seems quite unOrlanthi). In my Glorantha Vingans are often
> "ladettes".There are some who do either, and maybe even some who do both (or
> neither), but they do whatever they do outside marriage (and this is
> acceptable). Indeed some early/unofficial write-ups of Vinga suggested that
> the red hair dye doubled as a contraceptive, and gave Vingans a degree of
> 'sexual liberation'-- is this still the prevailing orthodoxy?
>
It never has been in my canon. The red hair is one thing, sexuality is
another.
But without a doubt there is someplace where that is entirely true.
> I think it was suggested at some point yesterday that Nandan cultists could
> marry (presumably Orlanthi?) men.
>
Dude, warrior with dick can marry warrior with dick if they want to. Vaginally blessed individuals may marry her corporal equal.
They do not even have to be in these cults.
The pantheon presence is another way of saying "You are All these." Orlanthi
are composed of all the elements, just in different mixtures. They include
all the gods and goddesses, but some are stronger than others.
So, oops, big hard core warrior guy, you need to cook breakfast for that
baby?
"Oh my Lord Nandan, I'll give you a beautiful black rooster behind the
henhouse if you help me make this baby food right."
>
>
--
Greg Stafford
Game Designer
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