On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:09 AM, Ian Borchardt <iborchar_at_0pU8wH8-OYS_UpYTyTVMuKIbrl7jg84IBtpo2l6LVg_BvKoXqgLRh39OQeAVODcSc-PyrQIXqX42.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
> In my games, the essential difference between veneration and theistic
> worship is much akin to the difference between evocation and
> invocation.
> In theistic worship you are trying to invoke the deity, making it a
> part of you.
> In veneration you are attempting to evoke the deity and bring it into
> being around you.
>
...this is 100% dead wrong.
Theistic worship recognizes that access to the God World is part of you Theistic worship draws the god OUT of you, because it is already a part of you
Veneration attempts to invoke [supreme entity] into this world
> Of course, this is the distinction in the broadest of philosophical
> terms. When you get down to the details of actual practice,
> especially when you are dealing with the practices we term magic
> (rather than worship*), well then Wakboth is in the details, if you
> will excuse the expression.
> In both cases you become part of the
> deity and the deity becomes part of you,
no, not so
1. there are no deities in veneration
2. In proper veneration, neither the Sacred Incarnation nor the [Supreme
Knowable] becomes part of the worshiper
and it may appear to be
> _very_ similar in nature.
Only to the most superficial observations the *results* of working energy from the Otherworlds may appear the same--that ie, a change in the Everything World
> That's why it is possible to venerate the
> traditional deities as St Orlanth and St Humakt, and probably why it
> is also possible to worship the Invisible God (as whatever the
> equivalent of Cathari Perfecti are, in all probability).
nope.
It is possible to misworship like that because we live in the Everything
World
But it is far less efficient that working it correctly
To make an analogy:
you can use steak to fuel your car if you want, with enough effort and machinery, but it is not efficient
you can eat oil if you wish, after enough processing, but it is not efficient
> If you are
> examining either in terms of the magical effects then an observer
>
depends on who the observer is, and what he is able to perceive
> would probably find little to differentiate them when it comes to the
> production of overt effects
I am going to assume that "production of overt effects" = method of making
magic?
since I don't understand, I will not comment.
> (especially if you use the rule "as
> within; so without" in your practice).
>
I don't.
Who in Glorantha does?
OTOH, you are 100% correct about:
> [* As gamers we have been much more traditionally interested in the
> benefits that worship can bring and thus we tend to concentrate on
> those benefits (which we call magic). But in doing so we forget that
> these benefits are only the minor fringe of worship, not the core of
> it.
I am concerned with the entire "interface" between the humans and the Otherworld. As Ian says, magic is only one of these. If you are seeking to understand *common veneration *by the magic it gives, you will fail. The effects are long-term, not discernable from everyday life. Common veneration knows [supreme] through a mental process that is called, in our world, *Faith--a mental state of being which requires a decision to break away from.
*I have been hoping that someone out there would discern this by now and bring it forth.
I want to be clear,
to understand Glorantha you must understand certain things:
Glorantha = the Everything World + (Skyworld & Underworld) + 3 discernable
Otherworlds
The Otherworlds are 100% exclusive of each other (except in Everything)
Differences between the Otherworlds within Everything include:
> Probably because it is otherwise quite difficult to measure the
> core belief, except in terms of the incidental benefits of that belief
> (and that these incidental benefits are what we, as the descendants of
> wargamers, need the rules for).
>
Yep
If any of these game systems had a mechanic for long-term effects on play,
then the effects veneration would be more visible.
If this was *Pendragon*, it would affect childbirth, child survival, harvest
results and losses after a battle.
> YGWV.
>
Yep, as always.
And encouraged
--
Greg Stafford
Game Designer
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