Re: Sikhs and Lords Spiritual (Was: The Importance of Caste (or Why Wizards Don't Rule))

From: Richard Hayes <richard_hayes29_at_Elou47JpNbIkwaMWGTs6RZHCaT13uO5MT0DEbua9dO0FwamTSzDdqlLxjGU9>
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 11:23:36 +0000 (GMT)


That or you take the Sikh option of saying all men are Kshatriya, and there are no priests ... Is there any movement in Malkionism which tried this (or still does this?), or is having a caste which specialises in Essence Plan magic simply too useful for any society to risk this?  
This separation between magic and temporal power works well for the atheist Brithini. Does it work as well for Monotheist (or Henotheist) churches?  
Early works featuring Malkionism (like Gods of Glorantha) placed the highest positions in a church's hierarchy ('Abbots' and 'Bishops' as they then were) in the Lord caste rather than the Wizard caste, (I believe they were sometimes even called the Lords Spiritual).  
Has the de-Christianisation of Malkionism led to either the abolition of the Lords Spiritual, or to the repositioning of these upper echelons of the churches within the Wizard caste?  
Maybe the answer depends on whether a 'church' is Hrestoli or Rokari? Promoting a clergyman from the Wizard caste to the Lord caste when they are made the equivalent of a bishop might smack of heretical inter-caste mobility to a Rokari, whereas  to a Hrestoli it might seem like an entirely proper form of meritocratic progress through the caste system.   
I can see the strength of the Hindu analogy, but maybe it has several further limits: 

Would the approximation of the Japanese caste system used in Land of the Ninja (and the distinction between Heimin and Samurai it uses)  be an even better analogy for Malkionism than the Hindu notion of Varna?  Does Malkionism have levels within the farmer caste between merchants, artisans and farmers? If so, does it (broadly follow a hierarchy like the Japanese (farmers are most worthy because they work the land and are closest to nature, and merchants the least spiritually worthy because they don't make anything apart from money) or is it more like the Hindu one? (Where merchants and traders outrank farmers) Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Hindusim (usually) has the same hierarchy of priests and senior priests who manage other priests that Malkioni churches do. Any such hierarchy must create a degree of tension as to whether priests who manage other priests are still "people who pray" or "people who rule". How is that tension resolved? Does Malkionism have a concept of "untouchables" (Are pagans "untouchable" in some Malkioni sects?) I had a bit of a go at developing some of these ideas in a campaign setting, in the Valeki Baronies near Ramalia, Handra and the New Fens at the far western end of Wenelia (and drawing heavily on the issues of Tradetalk which looked at these places-- not exactly canonical but I liked them). Though most of my (limited) sources on Malkionism at that time (principally Tradetalk and Tales of the Reaching Moon) dated from the mid-late 1990s.  
In those places most "peasants" were Mraloti Hsunchen (or ex-Hsunchen). They did not belong to the same church as the 'true' Malkioni. The caste system (and particularly the Wizard caste) had deviated from traditional models in order to accommodate this. Though the Valeki approach was very different from the Ramalian one.  
Richard Hayes

From: Jeff <richaje_at_8HuOiEtq5-s02meLXVwYKdZLhUo4bM51G55sQbNlgXiNc4PGFjvQeV8IjHmuLnYIHnnPvLPdDrz2t60.yahoo.invalid> Subject: Re: The Importance of Caste (or Why Wizards Don't Rule) To: WorldofGlorantha_at_yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 9 February, 2011, 6:15

> To draw real world analogies, albeit from a vastly different culture, there
> is a reason in the Four Varnas (Castes) of Hinduism, that the Brahmins, who
> are have religious/magical authority, are not the Kshatriyas, who are the
> warriors who rule the land.

I'm glad Santo brought this up: the Four Varnas are a better analogy for understanding Malkioni society than looking to medieval Europe. The biggest difference is the that Kshatriyas combine war and rule, and the Talors and Horals divide them.

> By necessity, ruling over lands, worrying about the material world,
> alliances, armies and war, distract one from becoming pure and spiritually
> educated.  There are some cases were kshatriyas have rebelled against this,
> and wanted both spiritual ascendancy *and* material power, but it usually
> ends badly.. or you end up like the great sage Vishwamitra, who was born in
> one caste (warrior) and became acknowledged as a brahmin through epic
> penance.

Or Hrestol....

Jeff


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