Simon Phipp:
> Those clans who had turned to worshipping draconic versions of their own gods would probably have gone back to their old worship and might even have become more fanatical in their worship. Some, however, would have tried to stick with draconic ways and would have left their clans.
I see just as much justification for those trying to return to old ways packing up, leaving the draconic-tainted element behind.
>> It isn't absolutely clear what side-effects these assassinations
>> had and how the ability to speak Auld Wyrmish was affected. The
>> loss of the "favourable terrain" effect of the dragon dream had
>> gone, and even with split tongues (and possibly, split braiins)
>> only basics of Auld Wyrmish could be applied.
> I'm not sure about that. According to Orlanthi mythology, Eurmal taught men to speak Auld Wyrmish and he wasn't affected by the end of the EWF.
Don't trust anything that even mentions Eurmal...
This text clearly is a later projection of "we were tricked, so it must have been Eurmal".
> The Gift Carriers took back the EWF secrets, but did that include Auld Wyrmish?
Different organisation, different targets. Similar memory losses occurred earlier with the destruction of Nysalorean illumination (I know the Lunars claim continuation, but so do the Orlanthi...) and Stygianism.
There were many EWF secrets known only to select upper echelons, in part because it took quite an amount of progress into the draconic way to understand the secrets. IMO knowledge of Auld Wyrmish was instrumental in preparing a human mind to grasp the secrets.
> I think that those who could already speak it would have kept the ability, but that anyone trying to learn it would be unable to do so as the ritual to split the brains/tongues would no longer have worked.
So the knowledge may simply have faded and died out with the last practitioners.
> > The rare cases of true draconic mystics and the individually > > acquired transformative spells of the Path of Immanent Mastery > > still may have had their powers, though in much weakened form > > since the terrain had become unfavourable.
> I'd disagree with this. Delecti was around some 78 years after the end of the EWF.
True, but then Delecti never was a member of the top echelons of draconic worship. Plus it is absolutely possible that he was killed in 1042 without letting him stop to meddle and resurrect. He wasn't killed in the Dragonkill, so he may have turned into an undead himself earlier on.
> There is a description of one of the Dragon Ring answering The Call and transforming to a dragon, which I have always taken as him joining in the Dragonkill.
I seem to recall a similar statement... the best candidate I can think of is Obduran, or else some other successful draconic mystic who had gone all the way to dragonhood and thus was exempt from the assassination.
> The Path of Immanent Mastery is Jrusteli in origin and came from Kralorela, so wouldn't have been affected by the end of the EWF.
Actually, it was studied in the EWF before being brought to Kralorela as part of the association magic employed by Gilam's False Dragon's Ring.
>> This may have allowed the people of the EWF to maintain their
>> defenses for some time, and to aquire some non-draconic
>> seedstock and herds after famine had claimed many of their numbers.
> The EWF didn't just rely on draconic crops and livestock. The people always had their old crops and animals and I can't see them having been abandoned.
If I take a look at the agriculture in our region, all I see is Monsanto seeds, vast areas of monoculture... In the EWF, going all dragon was more profitable, and there was a population density which required maximum efficiency. Doing things the traditionalist ways was supicious.
> Sure, individual powerful people in the EWF would have carried on and would even have tried to continue the legacy of the EWF.
People like Delecti and others, working on projects unrelated to the dragon project - such as Pavis, Remakerela, or the aging contest mentioned in KoS.
>> The immediate effect of the collapse must have been worse than
>> the effect of the Irish potato famine. I would expect a death
>> toll of about 40% of the Dragon Pass population, and another 30%
>> of emigrees moving out of the region. I'm convinced that Enfrew's
>> settlement of Suchara Vale (then a narrow strip on the Creek-Stream
>> River) fell into this time, and that there was a huge influx of
>> refugees into Nochet and Esrolia. Even Pavis may have seen
>> refugees, despite its troubles with Jaldon's hordes.
> I agree that many people would have emigrated at this time, but not necessarily for the reasons given. There was instability in the region. Those who had been suppressed had risen up again. However, it took the True Golden Horde many years to throw off their masters and to organise themselves sufficiently to attack the old EWF.
Not quite. There were opportunistic raids into Dragon Pass soon after the assassination.
The True Golden Horde had different goals.
Of course, it went after the True Golden Hoard of tributes accumulated since Dara Happa fell at the end of the Gbaji Wars that had been sent into Dragon Pass, and then during the EWF era. That's the downside of having an obsessive bureaucracy. These accountants failed to see that any gold probably had gone upriver many times, and that artefacts would get recycled (re-dedicated) over time as well, and thus created a myth of a vast hoard of treasure, all taken away from the more deserving Pelorians and sitting unused in great caches that could only be found by systematically lifting every rock on the way to the sea.
The other purpose was to eradicate all traces of draconism. To do so, you have to dig up every yet so little root, just like a gardener trying to get rid of bishop's weed (Aegopodium podagraria). This probably is the reason why it took them twenty years to finally arrive at the Dragon's Eye. The logistics of this operation must have been immense... much worse than the Machine Wars.
>> Some might even taken to the Remakers to survive this catastrophe
>> in any way, e.g. as pain centaurs.
> Possibly, but I would have thought that this was a local affair.
Yes. Humans seeking shelter with Isidilian would have been another local affair. I brought this up as a measure of desperation.
>> Few clans would have survived this emigration intact, so there
>> would be few collective clan memories of participation in the EWF.
> I wouldn't have thought that whole clans would have emigrated.
We're in agreement here.
> Clans would have split into those who stayed to worship the Old Ways, those who left and carried on with the draconic ways and those who emigrated.
The draconic ways failed suddenly. Carrying on with them meant starvation and no payback for the sacrifices.
> Such split clans wouldn't have carried the clan lore and many things would have been lost. They would have carried some information and might have brought back worship of heroes and ancestors to their new tribes.
Knowledge can be shared without losing any, traditions are much harder to preserve. The Old Ways may have been remembered in Dragon Pass, but mostly they had not been practiced (openly and consistently) since 675. Relearning to practice these traditions took time, which was at a premium when fighting for survival.
> When the True Golden Horde came a-plundering, more clans might have fled southwards towards Heortland and northwards towards Tarsh. They might well have brought more of their clan knowledge.
Fleeing northwards was tricky - that's where the Golden Horde came from. Fleeing towards Heortland was an option, if you were ready to submit to the foreigner laws.
Tarsh and parts of Holay were part of the battleground, and eastern Aggar probably as well. These lands had been core regions of the Kingdom of Orlanthland, with the Quivini and (modern) Grazer lands the southern part of that core.
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