Re: Is Spell Trading the hallmark of a vampire squid? (was: Vampirism) from Richard Hayes on 2011-12-15 (World of Glorantha)

From: Richard Hayes <richard_hayes29_at_6M12fNTJPvBhbBX8kyLSZnaULZ75b_6tj2v7nfroC3UZ8MzTJPoJUFIRTvd0>
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:36:05 +0000 (GMT)

Why all the fuss about Issaries' Spell Trading spell/feat, or about why traded spells should be one-use only.
It is a feat of the Trade/Equal Exchange rune, and it allows the trader to trade the ability to do one of his/her god's Feats once with another person, so the trader can do one of that other person's god's feats once. I would imagine that there is more than one Issaries myth in which he traded some of his power as a one-off for something that another god had (also as a one-off). Possibly some have even been published.
Critically spell trading is a peaceful transaction that no-one enters into unless they want to, which is conducted with some ceremony in a place made sacred to the trader's god. In other words the act of trading is an act of worship to the god of trade which celebrates trades that Issaries made in the Godtime, and (almost) a very minor 'this world' Heroquest. If you read e.g. Biturian Varosh on the difference between Issaries and Lhankor Mhy, you see that passing magic around in this way is entirely appropriate to Issaries (who arguably is a god of Communication rather than Trade, and the trade is a by-product of the communication), but not to most other gods. This is why only Issaries (and maybe Etyries) can do the feat, though others can trade their own magic by taking part in the ritual. I'm not even sure that other gods with the Trade rune (e.g. Lokarnos, Argan Argar) should be able to initiate this kind of trade
Furthermore the trader doesn't trade with anyone they don't want to trade with, nor does anyone have to do business with the trader unless they want to. It is for the participants to ensure that their god's power does not wind up in the hands of the enemy (though what they see as a fair trade with a neutral is tolerable, as their own god has not lost from the deal). If they go too far, their own cult/god would put them straight anyway.
This rite is a world away from anything practised by the Thanatari or vampires or the Bagogi. One is consensual, the Chaotic transactions are more like a form of spiritual rape and/or kidnapping.
If you want to link spell trading into specific myths, maybe you could impose a restriction that the trader needs to find a specific trade between Issaries and the counterparty in the Godtime that his own ritual re-creates? (Not sure I like the idea myself though). Also you might prevent trading in a cult's greatest feats -- for example a Humakti might trade Turn Undead but wouldn't trade Sever Spirit
Richard Hayes

From: jorganos <joe_at_5A3Zo2p0qzGV6p6kQtlPCXaF0C9VEvxGZtyRWhYFVU2NwOPBoeMAXwAH7AX49LZY7Xp1ZGZZ.yahoo.invalid> To: WorldofGlorantha_at_yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2011, 3:26
Subject: Re: Vampirism

Peter Metcalfe:
>>> I don't think the Vivamort ability to drain spells and other magic from their victims is possible anymore.

Phil Hibbs:
>> I don't see why not. So the HQ rules don't model it - doesn't mean it can't happen.

Peter:
> It's not HQ - it's just that the magic comes from the God and the idea that a God would be unable to tell whether the magic is being used on the behalf of a worshipper or a vampire carries more than the whiff of implausibility to me even using RQ rules.

This stealing is not so different from Issaries spell trading in allowing someone unrelated to the deitiy to perform this deity's feat. Basically, the difference is that the Vivamort victim makes an involuntary "trade" and doesn't gain anything in exchange.

I have no real problem with the way RuneQuest handled this - the spell has been paid for in advance in a significant amount of the magician's soul. Modeling either of these in HeroQuest is a lot harder.

> I know Vivamort is chaotic but he's the god of vampires not powergamers.

He sort of is... sacrificing your soul and life for continued existance...

>> By sustaining itself on someone's blood, some of that person's magical powers might become available and by using those powers, the vampire might weaken the victim's association with his god.

> I agree that the Vampire can get magic from the victim's blood but it would be better to have him use the blood to fuel his own magic rather than than have the vampire somehow fool the god.

Getting a part of your connection to your deity ripped out and used against you or yours is big time scary.

Blood magic tends to be really powerful, which is why beast and human sacrifices have so much importance. The laws of sympathetic magic do exist in Glorantha to some extent. Using the blood of a vampire's victim to command it to perform mundane tasks would be no stretch of imagination. Using it to animate the body of the victim wouldn't, either.

Now you're protesting using that power to manipulate the soul link that this victim shares with the deity, and yes, the deity part of the divine magic isn't governed much by the initiate's blood. The question is, how much of this divine magic has become an integral part of the victim initiate, and thus can be manipulated by the vampire holding the blood bond.

That said, a Sun Spear spell would still be pretty useless to a classical Vivamort cultist because of the requisitives.

Side thought:

The Vampire Kings of Tanisor flourished at the edge of the Bright Empire, and Illumination may have been part of the deal. If an illuminate can break (e.g. Humakti or Yelmalian) geasa yet retain the magic, would she be able to break other, harder restrictions like the effects of daylight on vampires? "Refute Daylight", anyone?

And how much of this effect can be intrinsic in the nature of a vampire (not immunity to daylight, but refutation of divine control over the powers once granted)?

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