On 10/01/2012, at 5:38 AM, hcarteau_at_n_kK_qzNt0XMLrOxyWt7hB6sBkbJnEWukSVb9MdW3SIJ_7AWT8H7vkXE7GUky8q31IqJMlng5jWQWTo.yahoo.invalid wrote:
> First, please not this is only speculation, a wild idea that crossed my mind, about which I ask your opinions.
>
> There is (almost) no reference to chaos, as the heortlings define it, in malkioni philosophy, mythology or history.
>
> There are many ennemies, the worst being the vadeli, who despite all their corruption are never cited as cavorting with chaos.
The Westerners (specifically, Zzabur) are the origin of the idea that the Devil is two-fold, Wakboth (moral evil) and Kajabor (entropy). I also think they consider the Vadeli the epitome of pure moral evil. I think they consider moral evil a subtle form of chaos that can be detected only through vigilance, because it exists with the world of Matter and can be detected only via the tools of that world. Kajabor is its manifestation of the same evil within the world of Energy (ie Magic) and most of what the rest of the world would consider Chaotic magic they see as manifesting the power of Kajabor.
And for what its worth, I think the Vadeli have no qualms about messing with chaos when its convenient. And the simplest example of Kajabor magic is Tapping, which the Vadeli use freely.
Thinking the Vadeili are not chaotic is a misconception. Moral evil is the manifestation of chaos within the world of Matter, the Vadeli are morally evil, ipso facto they are chaotic. Simple. It is not necessary for them to use chaotic magic (ie manifest their chaotic/evil nature within the world of Energy) to be chaotic. Many Vadeli do use such magic - but they are just as evil whether they do or not.
Ultimately I think there is probably some Western hierarchy of error that, while essentially conflating
(Note that IMO the real reason that Zzabur and the Brithini hate the Vadeli SO much is that they believe the Vadeli and evil and steeped in sin, but they are unable to identify the error of the Vadeli and so unable to correct and refute it. Pure Logic has nothing in it to combat the nihilism and self-interest of the Vadeli world view. To the later Malkioni, who have the Revelation of Old Malkion to guide them, this conundrum is solved - the spirit of the Creator entered the world, and all that hates the world and does not value it is a rejection of him. To the Malkioni who acknowledge Hrestols Joy of the Heart, the love of Creation is felt viscerally and deeply. So this is why the Vadeli where such great hated foes to the Brithini and Enrovalini, but not to later Malkioni.)
> The Cosmos was made from The One, with His/Its Creations slowly devolving into base creatures as humans. The eransachula got arrogant and staked out their own mythical territories. But there is no devil, no unholy trio. For all I know, there might even not be broos in the west.
I agree the unholy trio is not part of Western mythology. I think there are broos all over the place, including the West. FWIW, broos are specifically listed as G:CotHW as a big problem in Ralios. which is Westish. \ I don't think Broos are a particularly big problem in the West, though, not a particular foe known widely in myth.
> What they know of are krjalki, which are all nonhuman beings. What other call chaotics could just be particularly degenerate beastmen, which slipped especially deep in depravation.
While I think the Malkioni think all krjalki are Wrong, I think they are capable of distinguishing between the multiple different kinds of Wrong, often in exacting detail. Ultimately, all error is any error, and leads to moral errors, which lead to sinful action, and so on. But I think the Malkioni in general distinguish between the levels of error, and regard true 'Chao' or Kajabor to enter the world only in the Fifth Action (while Error enters as early as the Third Action).
> I'm not sure krjalk is still a chaos god in Glorantha, but if it is, I suspect the name was borrowed from malkioni by theistic pagans, not the other way around.
I agree.
>
> So far, I have seen nothing convincing that arinsor dealt with chaos. Banir's gate does open into some horrible hell, but it might be deshkorgos' for all I know.
>
Well, if you ignore that literally every source we have on Arinsor refers to him as a chaos wizard.
And that Arinsor was associated with the late period Bright Empire, known for its use of chaos.
I mean, if you are sufficiently contrarian you can probably manage to defend that position right up until a recent canon publication says he is a chaos wizard*, but why? It isn't even necessary to defend that position about Arinsor in order to defend your (IMO mistaken) position about chaos in the West - Arinsor is known to be a Nysalorian (I hope you aren't trying to claim *that* isn't true) and so could have learnt his knowledge about chaos from the Nysalorians from Peloria.
FWIW, I would be willing to accept that magic that deals directly with Chaos as we now it might have originated in the time of the Bright Empire, possibly with Arinsor himself. It is possible that before that time the Western sorcerers where aware of Chaos, but had not developed magic to deal with it directly (why would they have?).
> Likewise, nothing was ever specifically said about what kind of horrors lurk in the Dilis Swamp.
Again, only if you determinedly ignore sources that disagree with what you don't want to hear, even if they are the original sources from which most of the others derive. G:CotHW "This swampland is an evil place, full of chaos monsters." I mean, it doesn't enumerate exactly what kind of chaos monsters, but if what you are trying to prove is that the monsters aren't chaotic, you would have do the contrarian contortions really hard for that help you.
> Thus, I suspect westerners have no concept of chaos as the theists do.
>
> Any takers to comment this ?
Yes. I think you're wrong here. The West has, I think, a rather different concept of chaos. Clearly, . But I don't think that means they don't have one. I think Western myth doesn't really acknowledge the existence of chaos in the world prior to the death of Malkion, and as the great majority of their magic in the world predates that
But they understand and recognise the concept, and link the abstract concept of chaos with moral evil quite clearly.
If anything, the Western concept of chaos is a bit more pervasive. The theists believe in evil that is in way linked with chaos IMO - Zorak Zorani, for example, would be considered evil but anti-chaotic by your average human theist. Ultimately, I think part of the reason the West seem not to focus on chaos specifically is ultimately, they see all error as leading to evil, and all evil as chaos, and all the non-humans and followers of other creeds are in error (and so all inclined to fall into evil naturally). But they certainly see shades of evil/chaos, and are able to identify specifically those who use magic that directly invokes the power of Kajabor as being worse than other kinds of wickedness. And note the power of Kajabor directly is opposed to the power of Law, invoked by all true wizards.
Cheers
David
* I say 'recent' because if we count older publications, the first words about Arinsor that appear in official publication are literally "Arinsor was a chaos wizard of Gbaji the Deceiver's Empire...", which would rather render the whole argument moot.
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