Re: Shadows Dance and the GIant Land adjacent

From: David Cake <dave_at_eTWei8Sdz6_FMie45h5FWcaV-3xEJ6fLmN-qaxSOXsNE3O_zxe6C5bpOOuEmT7wv3_hprwd>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 14:58:44 +0800

On 31/08/2012, at 7:56 PM, Andrew Larsen wrote:

> Perhaps the connection with Disorder is part of what distinguishes non-Elder Giants from Elder Giants. The process of maturation for Giants may involve learning to shed their Disorderly ways and then to embrace Stasis (after all, the Elder Giants mostly seem to sit and do little beyond contemplate). Gonn Orta may be in the transitional stage; he's lost his connection to Disorder and slowly developing a connection to Stasis but has not yet achieved whatever enlightenment is necessary to become an Elder Giant.

	The Elder giants are a completely different (and much bigger) species to normal giants, is my understanding. Giants do not grow into becoming Elder giants, just as humans do not grow into giants. 
	Normal giants range from about 4m to 15m, 15m is very old and large for a normal giant. But a baby Elder Giant in the cradle is already 10m tall, and a mature Elder Giant such as Gonn Orta is 150m tall. 

	Elder giants and normal giants may have some connection - Gonn Orta does seem to surround himself with friendly normal giants, and seems to regard them with some sense of kinship. On the other hand, Gonn Orta is known to have a similar special sense of regard for Jolanti (at least, he became involved in a war on their behalf), and we know Jolanti have nothing in common with giants apart from sometimes being of the same size. 

	Cheers
		David
> 
> Andrew E. Larsen
> On Aug 30, 2012, at 12:25 PM, David Cake wrote:
> 

>>
>> On 30/08/2012, at 12:07 PM, jorganos wrote:

>>>> Personally, I find it hard to imagine anything LESS disorderly (or defiant of nature, for that matter) than sitting down immobile for centuries, and becoming part of the geography.
>>> 
>>> The ability of getting up again, changing that nice stable range of mountain into an enormous, probably ravenous and destructive entity makes up for that, doesn't it?

>>
>> The point is they don't get up again very often, do they? Elder giants (the exploits of young Gonn Orta aside) generally seem to never or seldom move, and mostly there are no indications they are ever going to move again.
>> The idea that something is Disorderly because of what they could choose to do, but don't, sounds nonsensical to me. Consistently choosing not to act is precisely what Disorder isn't.
>>
>> You have precisely one argument for thinking the elder giants are Disorderly, as far as I can see - you are claiming the elder giants must be Disorderly, because non-Elder giants are, even though the huge differences in culture and nature between the two forms of giant are in no dispute. That is extremely weak evidence, as almost everything else we know about them is suggestive of more or less the opposite.
>>

>>>> Though constructing elaborate clockworks that perfectly demonstrate the predictable and orderly nature of the world is also a very very not-Disorderly activity, and the Elder Giants apparently to that too. 
>>> 
>>> I don't think that all the gifts on the cradles are giant-made. Especially that clockwork toy looks like something made in Greatway. Other gifts may be handed down since the Golden Age when other neighbors from Genert's Garden produced such wonders.

>>
>> It is certainly quite possible that some items are not giant made, and the clockwork toy is a candidate, even though Pavis:GTA explicitly says they did (though consider this - would a Disorderly being even want to own a device designed to educate in the orderly and predictable nature of the universe?), but note that the wooden chessmen on the cradle explicitly are made by giants, using the Carving Knife.
>>

>>> (While I do propose some shape-changing ability of the giants, I don't think that they are able to change into someone small enough to produce delicate mechanical toys. That would be against their defining trait - giant.)

>>
>> I think they produce artifacts by using tools that are mentally controlled. Such as the Carving Knife tool that exists on the cradle.
>> I do not think they shape change really, more gradually erode into a mountainous form, but in either case the idea that they use mentally controlled tools to do their work while the giants largely sit motionless seems reasonable, and allows for construction of relatively delicate items.
>> Cheers
>> David
>>
>>

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