> From: "Mike Holmes" <mike_c_holmes_at_...>
> Subject: RE: What Gods Know
>
> Thanks for the info, Greg. I hope you can respond to a round of
> clarifications.
I shall try. There�s always a point at which the discussion seems to be going nowhere, when I�ll stop.
> If not, I'm sure that Rory or somebody will straigten me out.
Whereas Rory is stellar in his intimate rules knowledge, I�d never wish upon him the obligation to try to explain my Gloranthan cosmology and metaphysics. Spare the poor man that!
You raised many great points, but to answer them all would extend this past my own endurance, so I�ve pulled what seem to be the most cogent questions and answers.
Let me start by saying that there are different methods of thought and discourse possible, and they are mutually exclusive. Thus rationality, an extremely human trait that we have developed par excellance, is one method. It�s the one favored by Mike, and most of us, that he uses here. However, this is incapable of explaining everything about the unknowable. The intuitive, irrational or impossible simply to do not reduce to rational explanations.
I am trying not to use this as a cop out. But it is, in fact, true.
>>From: "Greg Stafford" <Greg_at_...>
>>
>>First, remember that most of the people in the world engage in mixed
>>worship. This IS the normal way.
>
> The idea I got
> from it is that generally religions have elements of all three otherworlds
> in them.
Point one: the intrusion of �three otherworlds� into a method of
categorization is where I think the rules are intruding into your
understanding,. Perhaps not to define your thinking but at least to muddy
it.
Most Gloranthans do not have the knowledge that there are only three
otherworlds. History has brought some of them together, such as the
Yelm/Celestial pantheon and the Orlanth and Ernalda pantheon. But most
people don�t think of the Vormani gods as being in the same world. Heck,
they don�t think of many of the petty deities (that rock over there, that
protects us from wolves, for instance) as being from the same �world� as
Orlanth.
Point two: I don�t think this is generally true. Most worship doesn�t need much otherworld participation. For instance, the Colymar regularly visit the Orlanthi otherworld, which they know and where various initiates of the pantheon go through to the Gods War to get magic. For Grandma Berrybush up there near the Frew shieling, we worship her but we don�t ever visit her Otherworld. We don�t get magic from her, just worship her so we can collect the berries.
> To parse the sentence above, then "People" means "participants in
> religions" (as opposed to individuals), and "engage in mixed worship"
> means
> "have more than one way to worship beings that are part of their
> religion."
No, they would generally have their one system. And it probably includes parts of sacrifice, veneration and ecstatic worship. Which they use to worship everyone, in various proportions. They use the Colymar Way to worship everything in their territory.
> "Most of the individuals in the world engage in worship of beings
> from multiple otherworlds."
This is precisely what I mean.
> "for those sorts who engage in specialized magic, given that
> religion is mixed, there's nothing other than concentration standing in
> the way of them having magic from more than one otherworld."
I distrust the phrasing of the question. The �nothing other than� is
incorrect.
Concentration = specialization in one deity.
> Let me put this in a way that I've been mentally developing for a while.
> It seems to me that there are three forms of "objection" to a character
> getting magic from a cult:
>
> A. Human Social
This is about the temple, not about the god. Relationship (Temple)
Of course, as keepers of the god�s secrets they can try to stop people
from getting in. They can refuse to help out by lending the use of their
temple, their support, etc. But they are the normal intermediaries, and as
far as social pressure, could have a discouraging effect (HQ, negative
mod) But they are not absolutely necessary for an individual to have a
relationship with a god.
So, in this case, they could make things difficult, but they can not
actually STOP
> B. Testing for Devoutness
You are identifying the piety relationship, the personal Relationship (deity).
> - the "Are You Me" test can object based on the
> nature of the character's desire to join. Basically if the player is
> having
> the character join for frivolous reasons, he may be rejected by the test.
> The character has to show that he's truly devout to some extent, and not
> just joining up for the fringe benefits.
But please understand that in your sentence �show� doesn�t mean pop in for the written exam. It is the sum of actions performed, the measures of his elemental souls, of his natural runes, of the runes cast at his birth, and his relationship with his society and environment.
It is not incorrect to visualize this as fitting pieces into a puzzle, or matching similar shapes. But in both cases, some fudge is allowed, so if you�re god is an equilateral triangle, some variant of triangle will also be allowed. If you are fitting into the Orlanthi hole in the puzzle, you have a LOT of variance allowed. If into Humakt, much less.
The �test� is an individual matching himself the deity.
Furthermore, the person normally has an affinity for the deity in question. It isn�t really a matter of a Gloranthan choosing which deity to worship. It is more a matter of finding the best one available. Which is why the Orlanthi adulthood initiation takes at least two years.
> C. Testing for Rightness - the "Are You Me" test can object based on the
> nature of the character's nature outside of his devoutness, and on other
> criteria. Most importantly, does the character worship anyone whose
> worship the test rejects.
Yes, the mythology of the deity is important. And of course some cults will reject specific entities (�We hate Zorak Zoran and his followers�) and others (I am thinking of the Malkioni here) will reject everything EXCEPT specific entities (�Saint Talor is OK�).
> Is this the sum total of the possible objections?
Nope. Purely physical (form rune) may get you booted. �No elves,� or �no nohumans,� and of course the famous rule of Urgh, leader of the Xenogang: �Anyone EXCEPT humans allowed.� Oh wait, that wasn�t a cult. Anyway, there can be any number of things to keep someone out. Language, not knowing the right way to stand when praying, size of nose, number of children, willingness to do something, and so on could be part of the qualifications if they were an essential part of the deity.
> Most importantly, does
> "you dabble in an otherworld outside of that which the supernatural being
> for whose cult you are testing belongs to" become an objection at any of
> the points above?
Almost no one in Glorantha ever thinks in terms of Otherworlds as a criteria. As I said, most people (even the wonderful logical and all-claiming Malkioni) don�t even know there are just three Otherworlds. God Learners had documents and studies on it, and concluded that there were no fewer than three, but never came to a complete and absolute conclusion (which would have required a mapping of the entire God Plane, for instance).
> Or does "Most people engage in mixed worship" mean that this
> objection is not *particularly* likely?
To be initiated into a cult, this would not come up. They would say, �How do you worship Orlanth? Heler? Grandma Berrybush?�
> Because I'd love it if, in fact, objections to multiple otherworlds were
> only as local as, say, deities that object to each other's worship.
I�m not exactly sure what you are wishing for here. I�ll say again, no one
thinks in Otherworlds. They come out in other ways: �do you worship any
enemies of Kolat?� and so on.
But are you asking, �Can my guy worship Chichi AND Orlanth since Orlanth
never heard of Chichi?� To which the answer if of course, depends on
Chichi.
>>Human beings have a unique position in the cosmic scheme. People are the
>>source of Will now, which they can use to shape the world around them.
>>Individual choices are possible to people, but not to the gods.
>
> I would ask if those choices include shaping the gods, but that would be
> tangential to the current discussion. But it would explain a great many
> things...
This isn�t the place to discuss the issue, but the short answer is �only a little.�
>>So, the first point is that immortals don�t *want* anything, except to
>>continue their existence as determined by the Great Compromise. Part of
>>that compromise was that the gods get the power sent to them by
>>worshippers. Nothing in the contract says they discriminate from whence
>> it comes. They live in a stream of �mana� that comes to them.
>
> Can't discriminate, right? Seeing as they have no will. So they can't
> choose to reject misapplied worship, the test doesn't look for that at all.
> Right?
Essentially, yes. They can�t choose, the just do.
>>Here is a case where out of game knowledge is overcoming the Glorantha
>>�man in the saddle� perspective. We naturally funnel our interpretation
>>through the rules because that�s what�s on the character sheet. But the
>>fact is that most people in Glorantha don�t believe that there are three
>>Otherworlds and three systems. They know of multiple otherworlds, usually
>>all labeled with the same category name (�otherworld� being an example of
>>this).
>
> I'm not sure that I see the problem. That is, what error am I making in
> how
> things work based on my knowledge that I have as a player. I don't for a
> moment assume that the Praxians know of a "God World" or any such. In
> fact, I suspect that they use a language that I don't understand (it
would be
> odd to find out that they use English).
Right. They speak English in Dragon Pass. Joking.
> It wouldn't surprise me at all, in fact,
> to learn that they only believe in one otherworld, the spirit world, and
> that they think that all other magic is common magic, or charlatanry.
Much of which comes from other worlds. Oh, they categorize a lot of it as �near chaos.�
> But Humakt knows. Heck, he's not a human, so we can't technically speak of
> him in such terms as "knowing" but we always do, as you point out,
> anthropomorphize the gods and spirits so that we can understand them.
Yes, at one level of understanding, this anthropocentrism is useful, but should not be mistaken for the reality of the gods.
> And to some extent their myths are like us,
Rather, �the myths that we know are ones where they seem to be like us.�
> and the test is "Are You Me." So, for
> discussion purposes, I think we can go with it.
OK.
> That is, it would not seem
> unlike the nature of Humakt to have a test where he discriminated based on
> what plans a Gloranthan has to worship him.
YGWV, of course.
But Humakt�s key point is, �Is this a servant of death?�
> I mean if he can test for
> whether somebody also worships Chalana Arroy, apparently, it doesn't seem
> to be all that odd for him to be able to test for proper worship method.
Humakt does not know that there are those otherworlds. He never read the HQ rules, and he never read the God Learner documents. He is what he is, which is, the Orlanthi God of Death. He knows there is an Other. Categories of Other, in fact. (Not me, not my tribe, not my rune, etc.) He �knows� what he is, but he does not know what he is not.
> But, since it serves my purposes, I'll accept that this is not the case.
> If the explanation is "Great Compromise" then fine.
The Great Compromise is, of course, the REAL answer. What we are discussing is the manifestations of that.
>>My conclusion is that they are doing it the way that they have always
>> done
>>it, because it works. The entity being worshipped is incapable of
>>volunteering the information anyway.
>
> Not to get into a chicken/egg debate, I can also swallow the "we've always
> done it this way" argument. But as an icon, it's hard to imagine this.
?Icon?
> That
> is, on the right days Orlanthi gather and cross over to look at Orlanth in
> his hall. Does he sit there stock still, unmoving?
Sometimes, for some people.
> Or is there something
> that can be examined about how he does things?
Such as? will you cast some detection magic there? Go and look under his table and behind his high seat?
> Even his appearance must
> speak volumes about him.
As the book says, his appearance changes depending on the holy day, and what Age you go to visit him.
> If he wanted to, I'm sure he could have put a
> sign up above him saying, "No Spiritists Allowed!"
More likely to have been done by some powerful hero, actually, and I would probably say �Only Kolati allowed.� But there is not such. Come on in for a drink, you�d have to be REALLY powerful to do anything not allowed by his hospitality, even if you wanted to.
> But, OK, again, great compromise.
Yes, of course. The Ultimate Cop Out for me.
>> > So why doesn't he just give some leader a vision when they breach the
>> > otherworld using their ecstatic ritual and show the myth of how he's
>> > supposed to be worshipped?
>>
>>They breach that all and go to that precise event now, of course. But
>>they are the Sword Brothers, outsiders everywhere, and so all of the
>>Otherworlds are hostile.
>
> So...those who do misapplied worship are getting rare views? So they don't
> learn more? OK.
?rare?
> I'd have to conclude, then, that "Are You Me" is unlikely to contain any
> problems with otherworld in any way. That is, if the Sword Man practice
> doesn't reject based on wrong otherworld, then I'd think that it would be
> very, very strange for the Sword Man test to reject you based on you being
> an initiate of a theist cult. The Praxians might, I suppose.
Of course, Sword man IS a Paxian cult. Their requirements may include �never have ridden a horse� or something, etc.
> Hmm. Can you be an Initiate of Humakt, and a Practitioner of Sword Man? I
> mean if Humakt isn't there to tell you that it's incorrect, then all the
> character has to do is convince himself of some sort of duality of nature
> of Humakt to buy in.
The duality of nature has nothing to do with it. And convincing himself is meaningless if there is not a reality behind it for him to act upon. That is, he can�t just convince himself of something and make it so. But frankly, if there were Humakti who were among the Praxians for some reason, I can imagine them joining the Sword Brothers after appropriate adventures, etc. And betting in, because they are born dead iron killers.
> After one guy does it, then he'd be "proof" to everyone
> else of that Duality. Sure it means overcoming some of your
> indoctrination,
> but if it's in the name of finding new and better ways to serve your
> diety, ego would drive this, I'm sure.
Only if there was an underlying reality, of course. For instance, in Fonrit the peoples at an early stage essentially DID JUST THIS. Simon or Martin can remind us of the name, but there was this total shift in method of worship because the guy realized that there was a better way to worship.
>>So, having said all of that, I want to stress that the critical point of
>>difference between �most people� and the average adventurer.
>
> Wait, wait, wait. You've said stuff like this before, but I assumed that
> you
> meant only that in a metagame way that PCs were special. Are you now
> actually saying that PCs are actually special in the game world? That
> there's something about them that actually sets them apart from the rest
> of
> the population other than player desire for drama and the fact that its a
> game played in a fictional environment?
Ah, the delimma of the medium. I shoulda had a smiley! What I meant was that the player characters have something special: a player.
> This isn't an attempt to make Hero Points an in-game construct or
> something,
> is it? I'm not seeing why this is necessary. So this is actually part of
> Gloranthan cosmology? Sorry if I seem a tad incredulous. It's just that
> it's a complete revelation to me.
A jest, a poke at the fourth wall of the RPG theater.
> Anyhow, I really have no idea what implications you intend (other than,
> perhaps, to empower MGF somehow).
Or to empower the player. Please understand, all of the above is an attempt to explain the norm, or the way that things usually are. Your character, with his special guidance (you) is an exceptional being in an exceptional time. The rules of the world are undergoing change. Your characters can be the ones to do it!
--Greg Stafford
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