>[Asking God to find out if a cult follows the Lie] doesn't work
>in game terms.
Your reasons for this are far too lengthy and esoteric to be rebutted at length here. But simply they are not convincing for two reasons:
> > Then your views fundamentally diverge from mine and Peter's. I do not
> > see how the origins of the Carmanians (fundamentalist, puritanical
> > refugees from God Learner religious innovations which were
> > undermining their caste-based Western religion)
>They end up completely changing the way they work when they became
>immersed in a theistic culture!
No, the Carmanians didn't. Read the description of what was changed in the Gloranthan: Intro. They realized that Sorcery was a bad practice and ordered other Carmanians to give it up. The Caste Law was unchanged by this, and is explicitly stated by be a Western Custom.
>You and Peter seem to be stuck in the concept of them being Westerners
>when they've changed from what any Westerners would regard as pure in
>the eyes of Malkion.
I am "stuck in" the concept because it is both the correct one and the published one.
>They don't even aknowledge Malkion except to corrupt his name
>to Fronalko and consider him a servant of the LIE.
Wrong. Malakinus is acknowledged and the Servant of the Lie is actually Makan. Even the Loskalmi have similar concepts about Makan "an evil demiurge that sought to entrap the ignorant in the world of matter so that they will never know Solace" (Glorantha Intro p78) as the Carmanians do.
>Rather they follow some weird mystical god called Idovanus!
And the Loskalmi follow Irensavel who is similarly weird.
>I think a small number of [Viziers] might [wear plate armour] and I would
>find it deathly dull to have a game where there is another D&D wizard
>clone caste kicking around where the poor players can't pick up a
>sword due to alignment, sorry, caste restrictions. YGMV.
You are perfectly free to deviate in your own glorantha but we are discussing Greg's Glorantha, where Malkioni Wizards do have caste limitations. It's not a D&D clone but something that has numerous RW parallels.
> >Through Divinations. Greg hardly blinked at how the Rokari
> >manage to control what is read in Seshnela [...].
>I like that, on the other hand we are talking about a _book_, not
>the secrets and practices of a cult, some of which are extremely
>powerful Greater Deities, like Bisos.
And All-Knowing Idovanus is even Greater than they.
> >I don't see anything wrong with the Magi doing a Gaumata's
> >Vision (q.v.) to see where the Lie waxes and multiplies and
> >then sending out the Fatwah to the locals to ship up or be
> >damned.
>But the Lie is internal and insidious and occurs when a cult
>follows different paths.
And the Magi can tell when the cult deviates from the straight and narrow.
> >But Carmania is known
> >to have distinct castes of Hazar, Vizier and Karmanoi.
>Yes, because those were vestigal parts of the cultural baggage
>they brought with them. But as you have shown in your Glorantha
>book, and as was shown in the Genertela book, they have suffered
>cultural drift over time.
_What_ cultural drift? There was a certain sharp reformation within the first generation or two of their settlement. The tenets of this reformation (Caste, God, Magic) have been adhered to religiously ever since.
> >But a caste by its very _meaning_ is not something that's
> >supposed to be changeable.
>Tell that the Hrestoli and all the lesser versions of them
>on the Janube.
And the Carmanians do not subscribe to the Hrestoli notion that one should rise through the Castes (which is largely a result of Siglat, seven hundred years after Syranthir left). The only other lesser version are the Arrolians, whom the Carmanians hate.
> >Their origins is the West which does have a concept of a
> >well-known non-weapons-using Wizard's Caste.
>Yes, but that is for practical reasons.
It is also for religious reasons. And since it does exist in the west, the Carmanians will have the same notion of what a Wizard should be like. Coupled with a strict caste law, and you will have a well-defined picture of what a vizier can and cannot do: chief among the don'ts would be wearing plate armour and fighting like a hazar.
>Their people survived amid a sea of enemies for a long time and
>so I think many barriers to weapons use would have been broken
>in extremity, or they wouldn't have survived.
They survived because they held firmly to the old traditions. If they did not then they would have become absorbed into the Pelandan culture with their strict caste laws forgotten.
> >Why _should_ Viziers fight?
>99% wouldn't, or wouldn't even see a battlefield. But why
>shouldn't there be exceptions to the general rule?
Why should Carmanian Caste Law make allowances for the 1% who don't want to live according to their caste? Once again, under what circumstances would a Vizier need to fight? He is trained for a specific purpose in life: to live up to God's expectation of him that he should serve the community by acting as a learned one. Fighting on the battlefield is an abnegation of this ideal and so should be condemned.
>There will be rules on who can fight and who can't, but like any
>culture, they will have a whole slew of exceptions, based on
>necessity, experience, past history, mythic events etc.
Why should they? It's like allowing a Hazar to worship a Servant of the Lie. Exceptions do exist, but they are ruthlessly punished when found out.
> >Excuse me but we do have published sources on caste. Apply
> >yourself to understanding the Western Concept of Caste
> >in the Glorantha Book p44-46 because that is the same as the
> >Carmanian concept. I put a lot of work in trying to make
> >that simple, clear and digestible.
>Thats fine, and it is clear, but that section is about the
>Malkioni, as far as I can tell, which the Carmanians are not,
>as far as I can tell.
Correct for the Malkioni, completely and utterly wrong about the Carmanians.
> >Then you still don't understand Castes.
>I suppose I will have to remain happy in my ignorance then.
If that is going to be your attitude, then perhaps you should hand over the writing of the Carmanians to someone else.
> >This is a Noble, not a Soldier.
>He is a solider and a noble.
An impossibility under Carmanian Caste Law, in which the two are distinct (Karmanoi and Hazar).
>Humakt is not the god of grunts and the PBI, he is the god of death
>and killing for Idovanus.
And thus a Hazar God and one that should not be worshipped by Karmanoi, as has been shown in the Player's Book: Genertela.
> >[Aronius's History] is not published yet and based on a
> grave >misunderstanding of Caste.
>Because I disagree with you on this, it does not mean there is a
>misunderstanding of caste,
But you do have a misunderstanding of caste nevertheless.
> >Changing
> >Caste is a _peculiar_ notion to the Loskalmi Hrestoli and a
> >culture with a strict caste law should not IMO have a mechanism
> >for changing caste merely because a Hazar has managed to acquire
> >some land and wants to retire.
>Like the Hrestoli, I think the Carmanians are an exception to this
>iron-caste (wince) system.
They are not. They are explicitly stated to have a _strict_ caste law in the Gloranthan Intro. The Loskalmi practice is based on a number of propositions (namely the doctrine of equality) that are denied by other Malkioni. Can you seriously imagine the Carmanians saying that all men are equal is the basis of their society?
> >If they do think so then it would be noteworthy and practiced
> >by most Carmanians, not "uncommon" as you said before.
>
>ts probably attempted by most people, much as ambition is the
>source of change in the RW.
In which case it would be "noteworthy" and thus mentioned up to now. Yet not a single mention of Carmanian Caste Change has been known before now and it has been denied in Nick's work which forms the basis of the Carmanian writeup. When I wrote up the Carmanians, I pointed out that their Caste was chosen for them in youth and if there had been any indication of how they could change caste later on in life, it would have also been mentioned there. When I wrote up the Loskalmi, I emphasized how the caste change was unique to them. If the Carmanians did change caste, then it would have been mentioned there.
Since it is not mentioned that the Carmanians do change caste and it is mentioned that they have a strict caste law in the western manner, the logical conclusion is that they do not change caste.
> >Carmanians can increase their social status without changing
> >Caste. I've already mentioned the possibility of Aronius
> >being a Shogun-Hazar which is perfectly possible in the west
> >just as it was in Japan.
>Aronious owned lands, and created a house, according to your book,
>only the Carmanoi caste can have fiefs.
Then he was a Karmanoi who fought in the Karmanoi manner and not as a Hazar. I however was pointing out an example of how a Hazar could hope to dominate Carmania yet remain true to his Caste.
> >So they have to have to parade once in a while to demonstrate
> >their readiness and own a tent. I don't see why a Hazar can't
> >do this.
>Because some of them don't.
Why? What is so oppressive about having a tent and turning up for inspection once a year?
>Part of the joys of a people who are
>at peace is that they cannot maintain a military culture, it simply
>disappears over time.
They are not "at peace". Their life is a daily struggle between the Truth and the Lie and they lord it over hostile Pelandans like the Spartans did to the Messenians (or even a caricature of the Deep South). If they did not adhere to the Truth and their caste, then they would be overthrown. Just because they haven't fought overt wars for centuries does not mean that their society is not tense and close to boiling.
>No matter the caste laws created during a time of dire military
>need, there is no way and law can halt this kind of change.
Carmanian Caste was not created during a time of dire military need, it is how God/Idovanus intends the True People to live.
>This is why we have all the evils of substitution rearing their
>head.
The Hazars aren't substituting. They are indicating their readiness for battle in accordance with the Law.
>The Hazars have largely lost their martial virtue and have become
>the caste of the common Carmania.
I strongly disagree with this. The martial virtue is always there and has relevance in a "peaceful society" (i.e. duels of honor, good gamesmanship etc.) There's a parallel here with how an English gentlemen is meant to behave in Victorian times that is based on medieval concepts.
>At one time they would have all been warriors.
They were never so. You are conflating the actual status of Hazar and the Caste of Hazar. Take for example the Rokari Knightly Caste. Only a few of them are knights, others can fight as mounted warriors but oversee the fief or town, while many just simply oversee the fief. All act according to the laws of the Knightly Caste while the Knight has extra duties and privileges as a result of his exalted status.
Similarly although in the Good Old Days, the Carmanians could have mustered more Hazars for battle than now, the ancient norms of what it means to be a Hazar are still as strong as ever.
--Peter Metcalfe
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