> It should depend on the myth and the tale it is explaining.
That's exactly right. The thing is there isn't a myth for every concievable circumstance, for every god. It may well be that there are no myths of Zorak Zoran in which he is actualy defeated in battle (maybe there are, maybe there aren't). If there are, then the reasons why he is defeated are absolutely central to the myth.
To cover the Yelmalion Hill of Gold quest, which is the clasic example, form what I remmember of it (there are a number of versions) Yelmalio actualy gives away his most important combat advantages early on in the quest in order to help others. In the actual fights he walks streight into ambushes because he has other important things to do that are more important that defending himself. The whole quest is about selflessness, perseverence in the face of impossible odds. I think I've heard one stage in which he's ground into the rocks by a glacier, or some such, but that most questers substitute another stage for that because it's generaly considered suicide a la the Baths of Nelat for Orlanthi.
What's imprtant isn't losing though. The important thing is succeeding at what you're actualy trying to accomplish - despite the fact that this means sacrificing any chance of winning the fighting bit, or whatever other contest you're in. As in the Jesus at Gethsemanie example fighting isn't what you're trying to succeed at. Nobody walks into a fight saying "Right, what do I have to do to lose here?", it's more like "Right, how do I succed at X, despite the fact I'm being beaten up at the same time?".
It's the old problem with HeroQuest of framing the contest. If you were framing the Hill of Gold Quest as a single contest it wouldn't be a "Yelmalio vs ZZ Close Combat" contest, it would be a "Yelmalio reaching the top of the hill against all odds" contest, with ZZ beating him up just being matter of Yelmalio augmenting his Steadfast (making a wild stab at an apropriate ability) with his Close Combat, while ZZ augments the resistance of the quest with his including hefty bonuses for ambush, unarmed opponent, etc, etc.
At the end of all that though, if you do somehow manage to win where you're not supposed to despite it all I'd say somethign special hapens. You get the benfits of the quest, without the negative consequences. After all if you did do the positive things you were supposed to which incidentaly nigh-on guaranteed a beating) then you made the sacrifices, and deserve the rewards because that's what the quest is actualy about.
Simon Hibbs
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