> Peter Larsen wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 5:32 AM, Peter Metcalfe
> > <metcalph_at_YojT9X7n9KRMCCxVMIbmcXrYAWlg4SrDLhHFLGaIi8ABIUvZ7ldIyX6s6ayx2xr9EcJsZKQRruGoKGppL-rOsAZeQKs.yahoo.invalid <metcalph%40quicksilver.net.nz>
>
> > I don't think austerities is a necessary feature [for mysticism] at
>
> > all (since Buddha rejected extreme austerity as a practice, there's a
> > pretty good precedent for thinking so).
>
> I don't see how that follows - he rejected extreme austerity thus no
> austerity is required?
>
> No, austerity is neither required or not required. It may (or may not) be
useful, but it is not the point. It's a little like saying that, because
many theist cults in Glorantha have sacrificial fires, fire is necessary for
theism. It's sacrifice that is required. The form of sacrifice depends on
the path.
>
> > It would be a
> > shame if the only mystics in Glorantha were ascetics.
>
> I'll bite. Why is it a shame? If you are wanting to play monastic type
> characters (say Vithelan Sages) you can do so but pretending they are
> practicing mysticism in their off-time is rather credibility straining.
>
> Because, in the real world, the practices that are the equivalent of
Gloranthan mysticism take a whole range of forms. Ascetic monasticism being
one. All the forms I know of require accepting certain limits -- behavior,
time, developing certain skills, etc, but there is a lot of variation.
Taking one as the model for how mysticism works in Glorantha is
unneccessarily limiting, to my mind.
>
> > * A theist, sorceror, or animist whose spiritual path leads not only to a
> > god, saint, or spirit but beyond, the being acting as a sort of
> Bodhisattva
> > to guide all beings toward the Ultimate, and so on.
>
> Except that I had previously argued these people _are_ practicing
> mysticism (I've even discussed Taleo Lumine in the Tower of Yelm).
>
> Right, but their practice, to some degree, starts before they wall
themselves into the tower, correct? Through their training and their theist
practice, they are learning things that will help them through the final
stage of the journey -- I can easily imagine stories that are told to
Initiates that the Devotees/Priests/whatever understand more deeply, and the
mystics more deeply yet (or, perhaps, merely in a different way). A
visualization that allows the Devotee to summon the Light of Yelmalio to
clear away darkness may serve the aged mystic to find the Light Beyond Light
or some such. I don't really like the idea of someone "changing careers"
from theist to mystic, it should be a more natural development.
>
> > I expect most "failed mystics with cool powers" are like this --
> > people who have received powers from a practice allied with
> > mysticism.
>
> Except that how does failing mysticism lead to cool powers? Refute
> Reality is a rules artifact of the repudiated HW mysticism rules, a
> searing eyebolt of doom is not. Sheng Seleris and Oorsu Sara did not
> fail their mysticism while using their powers for goods, they were
> seeking to attain the ineffable but chose the world instead. Even then
> its a huge stretch to posit the fearsome magics they wielded were a
> direct consequence of their failing mysticism 101. It's like arguing
> that having a lapse in Christian Mysticism gives you 30 pieces of silver.
>
Um, I don't think it was a case of failing mysticism 101. It was more like failing the oral defense of your dissertation and negotating for a lesser terminal degree of some sort. Or, if you prefer, Christ saying to the Devil, "OK, I'll take that rulership of the world; screw saving humanity" So, Sheng Seleris and Oorsu Sara hesitated at the edge of the Ultimate and, rather than surrender their selves (or whatever) for Liberation, they chose to grasp the world. That grasping gave them immense, but ultimately worthless, powers. From a mystic point of view, all of that power (and Orlanth's and Ernalda's and probably most of the Red Goddess's) is worth exactly nothing. It's transient and only the Ultimate isn't.
Peter Larsen
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