>> There is no mystic magic. Mysticism is by definition non-
>> magical and there is no mystical otherworld. There are plenty
>> of examples in the eastern myths of mystics using magic, but
>> that magic is like any other Gloranthan magic: originating
>> with spirits, gods or essences.
>
> I'm not sure that this is entirely correct.
>
> My understanding is that mystics do get magic through their
> practices. Mystics that remain on the path think that these magics
> are inconsequential (I've been looking for a reference but can't find
> it right now).
>
> There seem to be three magics that mystics get.
>
> Refutation - the ability to discard the effects of magic upon
> themselves. As everything in Glorantha is magic, for a 'powerful'
> mystic, this becomes pretty wide ranging.
I agree that mystics have such powers, but I don't think that is magic, rather on the contrary I think it is an expression of the mystic condition's otherness: as the mystic condition is neither physical nor non-physical, the mystic can refute anything that is physical or non-physical.
Which means that refutation works not only on magic, but also on freezing tempreatures, aging, sword blows etc.
> The ability to reveal a portion of the ultimate to others. Again, for
> a powerful mystic, when revealing this to the unprepared, it seems to
> be a devastating blow.
Same here, I don't think this is magic.
> Some form of prophecy or precognition. This is likely a side effect
> of their greater understanding of the ultimate rather than an overt
> power.
I don't have much to say about this as I'm not familiar with mystic prophesies.
Peter:
>> "Pure" mystics don't use magic, but most mystic schools of
>> the present day have incorporated worship, and magic, in
>> their practice.
>
> I disagree but more importantly I think that this discussion of this
> supposed degeneration is unproductive because it wastes time
> describing how the cult has changed from one abstractly described
> state to another such state. I think it better to describe how the
> cult thinks and functions now.
I wouldn't call it degeneration. If that is the impression I have expressed it badly. So, I think many mystic cults of modern day Glorantha incorporate worship and magic, for the simple reason that it works. The past masters have, deliberately or accidentally, included worship and magic and when it has made the path easier to follow, they have kept the practice.
Ultimately, these practices may be detrimental to reaching the final goals, but so few ever reach that far that the advantages outweigh this potential drawback.
That said, I think there are also mystic schools which do not practice worship or use magic.
>> Worship of the High Gods was codified by the High Gods
>> Chaquandarath.
>
> Codified isn't quite the right word as it implies a dogmatic
> approach to religion whereas I think the Chaquandarth priests
> are rather laid back and easy going.
I agree that codified is not a good fit, revealed might be better, but I don't agree about the nature of high worship. I wouldn't call it dogmatic, but extremely rigorous and difficult.
There is low worship of the high gods as well, but that doesn't give you any benefits other than knowing you help support the cosmic order.
> A Vithelan scholar worships Korudel. His personal magic functions in
> a manner similar to that of other scholarly deities (Lhankor Mhy,
> Irrippi Ontor, Buserian etc). *But* when he wants to worship Korudel,
> there are no priests of Korudel. Instead he and other worshippers of
> Korudel go to a mass that is presided by a priest of Chaquandarath
> because they alone know the mysteries of reaching the High Gods
> through worship and sacrifices. I don't know whether the
> Chaquandarath priests can do it for any god they are asked or whether
> they require specialized training
> - both approaches have their attractions.
That's an interesting approach, a third mode of high gods worship. I'm not sure it works, but it is so cool it must be considered for the sake of (game) fun.
>> During worship, the worshipper experiences
>> the mystic state/the ultimate/liberation/... This is
>> very difficult for mere mortals.
>
> There is another approach to attaining this state - through the
> worship of Oorduren. Because the direct worship of Oorduren by the
> priests of Chaquandarath is impossible because of what Oorsu Sara
> did, most people have to follow the path of his human sages -
> Mashunasan, Niang Mao, Larn Hasamador and Nenduren/.
Absolutely, and I agree that all these human sages learned their way from what Oorduren taught.
>> High worship is mysticism, but there are also mystics
>> who use other ways. Mashunasan's method for example does
>> no include high god worship.
>
> Mashunasan does not include any *theistic* worship. He still follows
> the path of Oorduren in reaching Durapdur. Given that his monks
> describe the mental states required to reach the ultimate in terms
> similar to the Five Malkioni Actions, it may be that his monks use
> spells in order to help them attain the necessary mental state. The
> spells do not summon the required mental state but in carefully
> blocking out certain distractions make it easier to attain. The use
> of such magics for material purposes will be seen as an abuse and
> severely punished by monastic authorities if caught. And of course,
> the more you are familiar with the required mental state, the less
> you need such spells.
This is exactly how I think many mystic cults work, how they use worship and the magic it brings. What I meant was that I think Mashunasan himself did not worship anything.
>> Worship of the noble wrongs, I guess most modern day
>> martial artists are in this category, but Sivoli for
>> example did not worship any deities IMO.
>
> The Noble Wrongs include sorcerors and animists, not just theistic
> worshippers. Sivoli's Air Organ will be similar to Kolat's Breath,
> except that the Easterners will have an interpretation of spirits that
> I'm not quite clear about yet.
With deities I mean gods, spirits or essences. I don't think the East Islanders care that much about the distinction. There should be a myth about the three wayward sons explaining the difference, but apart from the different modes of worship, it shouldn't matter what kind the object of worship is.
/Nils W
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