> As for the one-use nature of his draconic powers, the relevant statement is:
> "Members [of the Long Mountain Dragon School] were contemplative
> and knew that, in theory, they acquired draconic traits that were
> to be used only in times of meditation and ritual sheddings."
> History of the Heortling Peoples p48
> If you replaced Kapertine in your paragraph with Fantazandar then
> the paragraph works.
Ok, let's settle at that.
> I would say however that it is the particular philosophy
> of the Long Mountain Dragon School that lead to Ingolf's
> magic being one-use nukes rather than a general practice of
> draconic magic.
That's another statement I can agree with, since the general practice of draconic magic is - as I see it - not the same as becoming a dragon.
So there will be plenty EWF leaders able to use draconic magic and take dragon shape, but there are few (if any besides Obduran) that become a true dragon.
>>> On the subject of failures, it only said that Ingolf failed and
>>> that neither Burin or Jagaran became True Dragons as Obduran had.
>> History of the Heortling Peoples mentions the proponents of the faster way, especially Isgangdrang. Ingolf is a proponent of the older way.
> I don't think so. The faster way is the Forwards Faction while the
> other faction are the Here and Nows.
I think that these are later developments, while the paragraph on the faster track deals with an earlier schism in the draconic schools.
> As the Here and Nows gained control, "Material objectives
> of the empire thus became easier to accomplish but the
> precarious spiritual balance was lost" (KoS p188).
This does seem to describe what Burin did, and what happened when Drang was slain.
> Ingolf seems to be in the faster faction rather than the slower
> faction (although he is really a Pick-upper opposed to the
> Up-toppers).
>From the description in HotHP, Ingolf reluctantly joined the council to provide a voice for the (according to his and Obduran's view) correct way to dragonhood, and to counteract the one-way drain of the populace.
>> Since you discount anything Greg doesn't explicitely put into writing, I'm reduced to making the statement that there is no source stating that any of these did become a True Dragon.
> The Sun Dragon is a True Dragon - it is mentioned as having come to
> Prax in the Second Age in Nomad Gods and it fights like the True
> Dragons in the Dragon Pass boardgame.
I suppose that could be said about Great Lord Burin as well. All the shape, some of the magic, never mind the core concept.
>> The EWF era texts mention that IsgangDrang was a Great Dragon - a creature whose physical appearance was all you would expect in a True Dragon, not the ancestral variant.
> You really have to cite the source. HotHP says this about Isangdrang
> "His life charts the Right Left-hand Path. It is the perfect
> draconic method for every human being (in the EWF) to become a
> True Dragon.
> Obduran the Flier made it possible but Isangdrang made it practical.
That's one of the in-world bits, the one written in favor of Isgangdrang (which is balanced by another which describes him in a different light).
> [...] Isangdrang is a human being in form, but has proved to many
> Dragons that he is, in fact, a bearer of Draconic Power [a
> statement also made of Obduran on the same page FWIW - PHM]"
> History of the Heortling Peoples p43.
Yes - Drang can draw on Draconic Power. The function is there. That which the dragonewts accept as worthy of their support is lacking.
> The distinction between Great Dragon and True Dragon is one applied
> to Ingolf on p48. I shall observe that in both cases, the text is
> mightily oddly written if it were the case that only Obduran out of
> all the EWF had become a True Dragon.
Yes. FWIW, that's exactly what Greg talked about, too.
> On an aside, I think Obduran was a True Dragon _before_ he
> assimilate the Absolute
Oh yes, he definitely was a True Dragon first. Then he short tracked his existance as True Dragon, performed the utuma, and went on - I can only guess, but I would say to join the higher grades of dragons, like the 6 ancestral Great Dragons or even Ouroboros.
> and the mention of the True Dragon there is
> an error/thinko for the next level of draconic consciousness.
>>> They could have easily been boddhisvattvas following the example
>>> of the Inhuman King.
>> That's where my theory insists that bodhisatva has to have reached the full enlightenment/draconic existence before being able to use its powers for his people.
> I really don't see that. I don't see the justification for it in
> the gloranthan sources nor is there any justification for it in
> the status of boddhisvattva.
I'm referring to the life cycle of the dragonewts, too. Ruler dragonewts are able to rise to the stage of True Dragon. They may choose to become a dragonet instead, remaining to lead their less advanced kin and keep them inside the dragon reality (to avoid the term dream).
The newt life cycle does seem to be a mystical practice, all their physical actions mystical exercises, and when they place the object of the exercises over the lesson involved in the exercise, they can end up severely damaged, and unable to progress any further. Magisaurs appear to be scout dragonewts alienated from the progression, and dinosaurs appear to be warrior stage dragonewts lost in the passions that need to be experienced and mastered in order to advance. (I wonder what becomes of noble and ruler failures, but maybe Ingolf's fate is what happens to them, too - lost in the outer realms.)
> All (Mahayana) Buddhism says about the Boddhisvattvas
> is that they delay their progression to Nirvana to help others.
> There's nothing about Buddhists being forbidden to help others
> magically before they are capable of Nirvana.
There's nothing about Buddhists being able to help others magically before they are capable of Nirvana, is there?
>> We know that Isgangdrang started out the same as Ingolf, as a
>> disciple of Obduran, but Isgangdrang deviated.
> It's not said that Isangdrang deviated nor is it said that Ingolf
> was a disciple of Obduran. The earliest mention of Isangdrang is
> 775 ST while the earliest mention of Ingolf isn't until 933 ST.
You are right, all HotHP says that Ingolf studied with the same school as Obduran. The rest is my interpretation.
The question is, how many schools were there when Obduran approached full dragonhood, sat on the High Council, and insinuated draconic reality into Orlanthi lands? Isgangdrang is a contemporary of Obduran, then goes on to be a leader of the draconic Orlanthi and a mortal foe of the traditionalist Orlanthi.
The earliest dragonfriends explored their inner dragons through strange practices, which may have been meditative, ecstatic (Hunting and Waltzing) or yogic in nature. All had in common that they explored something transcendant, neither available through regular magical practice nor through regular heroquesting.
Obduran's school probably was the result of a more meditative practice.
A common side effect for successful draconic practitioners appears to be agelessness. Obduran performed utuma after a mere 150 years of life, Drang was slain about a century after Obduran took flight.
This could be related to some form of mysticism, or simply heroism, but they didn't go on regular heroquests.
There definitely are aspects of the draconic society that are unrelated to mysticism. Auld Wyrmish at higher levels may be an equivalent to Nysalor riddles, though, altering the perception of realities.
> Assuming both were active 50 years draconically before that time
> making a name for themselves, Isangdrang has a headstart of
> one-and-a-half centuries over Ingolf.
That's an assumption I don't share. Obduran was the absolute high-flyer in the speed of his draconic development, astounding humans and dragonewts alike. Most members of his school took way longer - IMO Ingolf is one of the most advanced disciples of this school, and has been part of that school for more than a century.
IMO (again) Isgangdrang was a top disciple before advocating an other way. A practical way, which made the mundane part workable. (Where is workable a criterion in dragonewt or mystical activities?)
>> Since Obduran and Ingolf clearly followed the mystical path, and
>> one succeeded while the other squandered his advancement for
>> entanglements, but started anew, we get the situation where a
>> mystical student decides that his master's (proven) teachings
>> are inferior to his own.
> I don't accept that form of reasoning as it doesn't happen in other
> gloranthan philosophies nor RW religions.
But it does happen in other Gloranthan philosophies. The Noble Wrongs of Vithela are a case where the perpretators who take the inferior path are accepted back after purification.
> Isangdrang and others would
> not have decided that Obduran's proven teachings are inferior.
"Our new way is better" is the same as "your old way is inferior". "Our new way is better for X" still implies that the old way is inferior, at least in that instance. (And of course in all other ways the new way is regarded to be equal to the old way.
> What they did do was to apply Obduran's teachings and insight to areas of
> thought that Obduran had not investigated in his lifetime (ie how to run
> a draconic society).
I disagree – Obduran's term on the Orlanthi High Council did include this.
I read this that Isgangdrang made the application of draconic magic easier for those who applied his methods.
Another issue: Isgangdrang instituted a draconic society by force, not by example. I think this development is where the error that led to the "betrayal" of the EWF began.
>> An originally valid mystical path, according to how I read the sources.
>> Mao Tzen then deviated, and at some point failed to remain a mystic.
> The only deviation from the mysticism that the Kralori source ascribe to
> Mao Tzen is some silly crackpot notion about him reincarnating within
> his son (whereas all it really meant was that Gilam d'Estau's father was
> also called Gilam d'Estau), all because the Kralori couldn't accept
> being conquered by a draconic foreigner.
Ok, let's recap this. Mao Tzen aka Gilam d'Estau (the elder) was a prominent leader of the Immanent Mastery School that somehow is tied to the God Learner studies of Kralori (dragon) magics. By immersing himself in the draconic secrets, Gilam became a heretic to the God Learner ways, but since he brought a new province to the empire, noone complained.
I'm away from my sources again... The Immanent Mastery School was active in Kethaela at some time – I think before the conquest of Kralorela - and I seem to recall that Mao Tzen was, too.
This would mean that the Immanent Mastery method was derived from observing the early EWF activities (Hunting and Waltzing, Auld Wyrmish language) by sorcerous investigators who then tried these methods and got similar results.
So, where did Gilam d'Estau gain his draconic insights from? Did he need to be draconic, anyway, or did he just have to get far enough into the magical flows directed by the Kralori bureaucracy to ascend to the top?
>>> I think that the Path of Immanent Mastery is valid Draconic Magic
>> Then what are the manifest False Draconic powers Elder Secrets tells us about? "Attain perfection of ..." transformative magics?
> False Dragon Powers is really Kralori propogandra. History of the
> Heortling Peoples says of the Immanent Masters that they became Great
> Dragons but none ever became True Dragons or more.
Yep. And the same source implies that in the EWF only Obduran ever became a True Dragon.
Being a True Dragon was no requirement to heed the call for the Dragonkill, any being with draconic ties was called to the aid of the dragonewts. Possibly the draconic equivalent to the distress call by whales in trouble.
On the other hand, maybe the Truth of being Dragon is measured differently by different observers.
Once Obduran became a dragon, he didn't switch back to his human nature. Isgangdrang, Lorenkargatan and Sun Dragon kept assuming human shape.
I'm not sure about the Third Council sessions – were these held in human shape, or were they a gathering of dragons? Or strange middling shapes?
>> It is not an error to use such powers as long as this furthers your development,
> This is just awful writing. It's like reading a biblical verse that
> says "Love One Another so long as it furthers your Spiritual
> Development".
Dragons aren't human or humane. And basically the advice above is in the working manual for Eastern mystics, too. They call it entanglement, and meditate hard to avoid it.
Dragons aren't about love or helping in European mythology. They are about greed, terror, hunger, danger. That's how they appear in Orlanthi myths, too.
The Kralori are claimed to be descended from Dragon Hsunchen. That, or some other inspiration for Daruda, made them draconic. In the East outside of Kralorela, dragons are associated with the antigod dragon created by the three sons of Vith (shaman, sorcerer, priest) to overthrow Vith.
If there weren't dragonewts on the islands bordering the Kahar Sea I would have my doubts whether the Kralori concept of dragons and that of central Genertela were connected. (That, and of course the cultural exchange during the Second Age.)
Even the dragonewts point out a difference in their cultures – survival in weakness (Dragon Pass), and survival in strength. The newts of dragon pass cooperated with the other races to defeat chaos in the Unity Battle. The newts of Kralorela never had to fight chaos, as far as we know.
> One doesn't follow mystical paths to further spiritual
> development, one acts according to what is right and what is wrong.
That's not the impression I get from the descriptions of the Eastern Sages. Their concept of right has nothing to do with that of the societies around them governing inter-human relations.
The mystics gain support because their side effects of magic (or natural forces) negation are useful. The stillness propagated by Nenduren probably can be best appreciated in the middle of a tree-uprooting typhoon.
> If helping others is a Good Thing then it is a Goal rather than something
> that should only be done in pursuit of mystical enlightenment and not at
> other times.
If so. When helping others becomes an overwhelming entanglement, it is a bad thing in the mystical path, bad both for the mystic and for the people he entangles with. Only once he has avoided that entanglement and can maintain his distance, helping is possible.
A mystic without the necessary distance is like Mickey Mouse as the apprentice magician in Disney's version of Goethe's poem – able to do powerful things, but unable to control them. That's how I see Ingolf – way too unready.
> Avoid describing draconism in such naked terms of self-interest.
Mysticism in general. The mystical path comes first. Any humane activity causing entanglement can destroy the mystic.
> You don't do it for the Lunar Way or the Orlanthi so you shouldn't inflict
> it on draconists.
The Orlanthi aren't mystics in the sense of the Gloranthan magical system. Not even the Storm Walkers – they are a fellowship of disciples of Orlanth, very magical, approaching the Ultimate exclusively through Orlanth.
The Lunars are a borderline case, as was Nysalor. Their core concept of Balance allows them to approach Chaos and get away with it (for certain values of getting away with it). I don't think that they have as direct exposure to the Ultimate as do Eastern or Draconic mystics (or in case of the Kralori, both). The Red Goddess had her extreme experience with Chaos rather than the Void, or switched there when faced with the Ultimate. I don't see her followers as going all the way on the mystical path, they are content to go very far in the Lunar subset of reality that exists on the moon and in the Silver Shadow and gets projected by the Reaching Moon temples.
I don't know enough about the Nysaloran way to be able to say where Lokamayadon or Palangio would be in comparison to the ascended Lunars. I think that Nysaloran teachings influenced the Lunar way, but they arrived there differently from what the Bright Empire did. Other influences on the Lunar mystical practices are the Jernotians, the Idovanic and the Solar contemplative paths, and the Spolites. Add some Vadeli/Pelandan Blue People influences, too...
The Lunars care, and lovingly touch their subjects with Chaos. That in itself makes a comparison with draconic practitioners quite moot. What the Lunars, the Bright Empire and the EWF have in common is that they create an alternative reality for their peoples to live in. I'm inclined to say that Arkat did so, too, and that his reality outlasted Nysalor's. It may still exist, or it may have been collapsed by the God Learners.
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