On 09/07/2013, at 10:58 AM, metcalphnz <metcalph_at_quicksilver.net.nz> wrote:
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>> For my group, we didn't find much contradiction with the Lunar >> way. Lunars are against "unhealed" chaos.
Absolutely. I know the chaos=nuclear energy metaphor is a bit trite, but I really do think that the Lunar state does deal with chaos in a way that has some overtones of how the modern state deals with technologies like nuclear power or biological agents - endless audits, oversight processes by highly trained secret experts, permission must be granted by approved high officials, etc. And the Lunar tolerance of chaos is not lip service, but a genuine tenet of the religion (not to mention a practical need, with your Lunar heroes occasionally sprouting chaos features after using chaotic powers to defeat the heathen). They can't have aggressive anti-chaos types wandering around. The Lunar Empire is more intimately familiar than anyone else in Glorantha with the massive destructive potential of chaos, and how it can appear to come out of nowhere if you are not paying attention. They pay attention. But they are also more intimately familiar than anyone else in modern Glorantha with the dangers inherent in the dark side of Illumination, and the potential for subtle failure. I think they pay a lot of attention to that, too. I agree with Peter that "It's evil, kill it" is a very long way from either what the Lunar Way demands, or what Lunar chaos fighters would really need. I suspect Lunar anti-Chaos efforts are headed by experienced Illuminates, Examiners and such, and emphasise the judgement to know when to accept it as the Lunar way demands, and when to mercilessly destroy it as too dangerous. And the even finer judgement needed to find the line between the dark and light side of Illumination, a line often only drawn in the heart - and perhaps a line sometimes less relevant than usefulness to the state. And of course, such trusted senior officials hardly need special chaos fighting magics. They have powerful Lunar magic themselves, including such useful abilities as the detection of other Illuminates, and when they really need to unleash hell on some chaos monstrosity, are able to call on the resources of the Lunar state. And, of course, the Lunars have no problem fighting fire with fire, or chaos with chaos - Illuminates are able to use powerful chaos magic if needed. And I suspect many of those who accidentally end up afflicted with chaotic features etc and are no longer suitable for public roles might be drafted into specialised 'dealing with chaos' squads. (in fact, one way of dealing with borderline chaos cultists, ones that have clearly fallen into unsanctioned chaotic practices, but that is considered still 'healable', might be to draft them into chaos suppression efforts.
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>> After all, they find Thanatar and Malia to be "evil" just like >> everyone else.
Because most of them (barring the very odd few who are participating in those rites only in pursuit of some other purpose, such as at the orders of the state) are, in fact, evil. Enthusiasts of murdering others for personal gain.
> but the Irin School is supposed to be the teachings of a Lunar Hero with superior insight. That's part of the reason why the cult doesn't work for me.
Me too. It was pretty sketchy - the idea of a Lunar anti-chaos cult was OK, but it is close to as generic a version you can get, with very little of the nuanced view of chaos you'd expect from a Lunar immortal.
>> So we already had chaos that was "OK" (the Lunar magic that has >> chaos) and chaos that we "bad" (the Thanatari).
Atyar originates in the East, though the Than half of the cult is of course of Orlanthi origin, and it seems pretty clear that the 'reuniting' of the cults occurred in Orlanthi lands in the First Age. I'm sure the Lunars don't give 'pure' Atyar followers a pass on the mind eating just because they aren't too Orlanthi, though. Whether the murder has a vile barbarian or sophisticated Kralorelan flavour to it isn't really more important than the horrible murder part. Most of the chaos that has some notable Orlanthi connection (draugr, for example) the Lunars simply just don't care about, because its not their problem. But it doesn't really matter where it comes from. Both head taking and mind eating are prima facie ethically nasty, no matter where the practices came from, being both fancy ways of murdering. That doesn't mean that the Lunar Empire won't, in its pragmatic wisdom, tolerate their use by the occasional trusted illuminate in state service (excellent ways to deal with captured loyal rebels), but they are not the sort of practice that the Lunars can proclaim as morally neutral, or ignore as without consequence - though hypocrisy from the powerful is certainly part of the de factor Imperial way. Chaos that is actively inimical to others, like the bat, is tolerated only when it serves society (or the state, which like most states the Empire presumes to be much the same thing). Thanatar is bad because practicing their rites involves horrific murder. The Lunar definitely frown on horrific murder, and consider it morally wrong (while, as states are won't to do, occasionally deciding that horrific murder isn't that ba d it it as their behest and serves their purposes - like every sufficiently pragmatic government, they say 'don't do it', but they mean 'don't freelance' ). The Lunars don't regard chaos as a crime against nature. In this respect they are unique. They do most certainly still regard horrific murder, chaotic or not, as a crime (except, of course, when they do it). In this respect they are just like everyone else. Lunar chaos is considered good because it, more or less, behaves. It does what it is told. The costs of its existence are balanced against the benefit to society, and pragmatic decisions are made. This way of unreasoning is unthinkable to Orlanthi, for whom the costs of chaos are potentially the entire world and corrosive weakening of everything there is, and the benefits to society of chaos are always nonexistent (benefits to individuals, sure). If chaos wants to just sit on its lonesome and burble happily to itself, or just sprout a few horns or tentacles while otherwise behaving like a good citizen, the Lunars don't really care. If chaos wants to extract a cost to others (be it in the form of their soul, their head, their health, or their blood) then it has to justify that cost by providing value. The Bat is horrific, but destroys many barbarians, and brings many military victories. and thus benefits the entire empire. Vampire troops likewise. So, the Lunars have no need for a cult that specialises in laying down a sharp line between what is chaotic and what is not (quite a few citizens of the Empire are 'just a bit' chaotic, having succumbed to the urge to use chaos powers in desperate circumstances), and even less for a cult that simply specialises in killing anything on the wrong side of that line. Before asking how to destroy chaos, they must first ask themselves does it need to be destroyed, or would it be best if it was destroyed, and that can be complex, as there are many alternatives (who is it hurting, can we accept that cost, how does it benefit us, can we turn it against our enemies, can we tame it, etc). Those decisions are best made by people who are not fanatics. >> But I agree the write-up in the book is pretty sparse. Maybe more > of something to develop yourself than something you can use as is.
Yes. The Irin school is just one of the many that are barely sketches of a cult that fills a niche. A lot more info about a lot fewer cults would have been a lot better.
>> In any case, in the end what we have struggled with is finding a >> good definition of what is "healed" chaos and what is "unhealed" >> chaos.
The Lunars think that it is wrong to fear Chaos just because it is Chaos. They do not deny that it is perfectly rational to fear having your head cut off and your soul enslaved, or having your mind eaten, or being eaten by gorp or ogres, or catching a horrible disease. That doesn't mean that 'healing' Chaos is meaningless - just as the non-chaotic must learn they do not always need to fear chaos, the chaotic must learn they do not always need to be feared. Or perhaps more profoundly, that they do not need to fear themselves.
> The ideal response is to cease to fear chaos so that it will have no power over you and to teach others to do likewise.
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Indeed. But once you cease to fear chaos, you may still decide that the appropriate way to deal with people intent on cutting your head off or eating your soul or spreading disease etc is to ensure that they are not able to do so, likely permanently.
Cheers David
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