>Peter Metcalfe defends his "obvious" association of Water and dragonewts
>against the merely factual evidence of RQ2:
>> That was then, I suppose. However there are historical references to
>> Dragons and their kin having elemental powers. Mind of the Golden Dragon
>> who ruled the land of Saird during the Broken Council was said to have
>> studied the myriad solar rites of Dara Happa and Peloria. Then there is
>> the Dragon Sun who ruled Dara Happa.
>This is getting pretty far from the track from "proof" that 'newts have
>_water_ associations, though, isn't it?
hmm? I was citing references for Dragonewts _could_have_ elemental powers despite RQII. I already said that the Dragonewts viewed the River as their Ancestral Dragon. That is what I meant about the 'newts having water associations. I do not believe that most of the 'newts could thus summon Undines and such like as their cults have changed dramatically by the draconization. I was merely saying that their water associations were observable if one knew where to look (like their place on the Inner Circle for example).
>Erik Sieurin claims:
>> PS: I happen to know a sure-fire way to Hell. [do nasty things]
>> Obs! Trolls trying this will end up in the sky instead
Alex replies:
>I suspect not. I think all Uz go Down Under, but some get that nice
>Wonderhome place, while others go to the nasty chaosy bit, and others,
>probably including many of the malefactors Erik mentions, go to areas
>where they get singed by Yelm on his "nightly" journey, or by some
>other entity of Hellbound Aether.
Um, try the Burning Prison which is said to be up in the Heavens. Source: The Six Worlds of Glorantha: Upper World from G:CotHW. The Evil Trolls are said to go there.
David Cake:
First off an apology.
I discovered that talking about Jalakeel as a Spolite Witch, I made a BIG mistake. I confused the Mountains of Jord with the Province of Jhor and thought that Jakaleel came from modern day Carmania. This was the source of my anti-troll, anti-Arkati vision of Jakaleel. I could prattle on trying to rescusitate my (dead) thesis but I think I better shut up.
But a couple of unconnected things:
> Arkat was stomping around Peloria at the head of a ZZ army. I think
>the ZZ cult of Peloria are going to remember the connection. Not necessarily
>stress it, but I think some links will remain. I can certainly imagine Arkat
>wanting to make sure that some of the local trolls had enough knowledge to
>deal with the particularly insidious threats of Nysalor.
No, Arkat didn't 'stomp around Peloria'. He stormed Saird and then moved with his Corps of Zorak Zorani onto Dorastor. Dara Happa fell to a combined army of Theyalans and Praxians who could not handle the horrors of Dorastor. The Army that did make it into Dorastor fell victim to a traitor (dramatic pause) and was almost exterminated, IMO. It was only Talor coming down from Castle Kartolin and putting the City of Miracles to the Sword that saved the day. As Talor enters Dorastor from Dorastor via Ralios(!) it seems to me that after killing Arinsor and closing the Gate of Banir, Talor decided to try and halt the Evil by going for Castle Kartolin rather than Fight his way through Pelanda. When Arkat recovers his wits, he curses the land and leaves _via_ Kartolin. Thus IMO, much of Peloria would not have an Arkat Cult and I strongly doubt that any Cultists of Arkat the Troll would exert much political pressure among the Trolls of the Jord Mountains and the Blue Moon Plateau do.
>> As I have said before, I don't believe Yanafal faced
>>Humakt until after the Birth of the Red Goddess. And I don't think that
>>Irrippi Ontor used Glamours until afterwards. This is because of my
>>belief that the act of participating in the Ritual _transfigured_ their
>>mindset and their attitudes.
> I think that they had a good idea of what might happen to them when
>they went into the quest. You may be right, to some extent. But our views
>are not necessarily contradictory. Where did IO get the knowledge of Glamour
>powers? Where did YT get the knowledge of how to be a resurrectable Humakti?
>Are these abilities coincidences, or did the 7 Mothers have some idea of the
>powers they where dealing with?
For the Carmanians, I suppose they got their ideas from Saucy Literature. Irripi Ontor may have got most of his ideas about Glamours from 'The Vizer of Lies and His Velvelty Rod of Passion' or something like that. Given how anal-retentive the Carmanians are about the Truth, it does seem appropiate to me that they have copious amounts of literature stored in special bookcases underneath their beds, luridly describing in detail the notorious infamies and extravagant decadence these monstrous practitioners of the Lie get up to.
Sandy Petersen:
> Actually, I'm not sure illumination is meaningful for any
>of the elder races. How would an illuminated elf behave differently?
>And an illuminated dwarf is ludicrous. "I just realized that
>existence is pointless!"
For elves, Arkat was illuminated by the Elves of Brithos and Rist/Hellwood has long been a hotplace of illumination. Since you said that it removes one from the life/death cycle (according to the Lunars and the Orlanthi), I can only presume that a heterodox belief among elves would exist that it elevates them to a higher form of existance with the Grower. I agree with your comments about the Trolls and the Dwarves.
Camo:
>Refering to Tim Ellis' thoughts of illuminants being immortal, Peter Metcalfe
>sez:
>> And besides the Brithini and the Mostali are immortal but I don't see
>> Illumination among them so I feel your 'illumination = immortality' is
>> somewhat weak. An illumination discipline may exist to reverse the flow
>> of aging but that's not quite the same thing.
>Just because all illuminants are immortal does not mean that all who are
>immortal are illuminated. It's like saying all fish live in water so all
>water beings are fish. It don't work. I hadn't really thought about it before
>but to me, Tim's statements ring true.
Well Tim did mention the Mistress Race Trolls and couldn't think of any other immortal species. But if you must insist: I presume what you are arguing for is eternal life and youth, right? People were growing old _before_ the Great Compromise. From the Glorious ReAscent 'After his [Emperor Kestinoros] reign, Old Age became prominent for the first time, affecting the weak and the poor first. Later, though, it came to everybody.' Thus if Illumination allows one to avoid the Great Compromise, then it does not follow that all Illuminates should be immortal.
I think Old Age is a _mundane_ process and not an Otherworldly curse as a result of Grandfather mortal being slain by Humakt. To retard aging, you generally have to bind yourself to the Otherworld more closely, sacrificing your ability to make independant actions and suchlike by a HeroQuest. The Mistress Race Trolls are immortal because they have the ichor of the Plutonian Dieties running through their veins. The Brithini and the Mostali volunteerily restrict themselves from doing certain things so as to avoid aging. Illumination is a freedom to choose not a winning lottery ticket!
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #48
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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