>> [Atomism]
>>I think that the OAEs were an early God Learner organisation, similar to
>>the Nochet-based guys who raided the cult of Drolgard around 572 ST.
> Replace 'God Learner' with 'God-Learner like' and I would agree with
> this statement.
No problem with that, since I regard the God Learners not as a well-defined political or spiritual group, but rather a movement with lots of independent groups. Your mileage may vary...
> [What happened to Talor]
>Me>> Lords of Terror does says that Talor was killed in the storming of
>>> the City of Wonders.
>>So what? Afterwards he led his victorious survivors back to Fronela.
>>Heroes killed in action aren't yet out of the game...
> Did he? LoT also says that Arkat made a tomb for Talor after the
> battle and buried him there.
Do you mean the tract of the cult of Arkat Chaosbane, distributed in Tortun (Ralios), Sacred Time, 1622 S.T., on p.12? That's ultra-pro Arkat propaganda calling Talor not by name, but the Laughing Son (of Arkat).
> The SC Guidebook is mere propogandra
> at this point. Reread the disclaimer.
Well, then all other historians have been fooled as well, for instance Martin Crim in Codex 2, p.8: "Talor, meantime, was content to be the Champion of Akem, where he died of Old Age." Which agrees with about all other sources I have seen about Talor, e.g. Sandy's write-up of the Malkioni Saints.
[...]
>>I didn't say that the Carmanians viewed him that way, at least not
>>after he parted company and returned to Fronela.
> *sigh*
> Then what the hell were we arguing about then? I had said I do not
> believe the modern day _Carmanians_ saw Talor as Arkat's Lieutenant.
> Praytell, what was _your_ objection to this statement?
I wanted to reality-check this.
> [Second Age definitions of Hrestoli]
>Me>> I thought this [Froalar's way/Late Old Malkioni] largely
>>> vanished (save for God Forgot and other dreary places) when the
>>> Serpent Kings took over.
>>What do you think the people of Akem were before Hrestol's revelation
>>reached them? And I don't know how universally accepted Hrestol's way
>>was outside of Seshnela - those who did not accept it will have remained
>>this way.
> Huh? _When_ and _where_ was Hrestol martyred in your version of Glorantha?
> I thought he was martyred in Sog City (in Fronela) thus converting any
> Malkioni Exiles there to his relevations.
Yeah, like Jesus Christ was martyred in Palestine and converted all the Jews?
Even though Joy of the Heat was quickly spread in Akem, I doubt it was universally accepted. Least of all by those Malkioni who had Immortality spell juvenation cast upon them.
> This turned Fronela into a
> Stronghold of Malkionism whilst the Serpent Kings were reveling in their
> paganry.
Heinotheism (typo intended).
> I think the True Hrestol way came from Fronela after the Serpent
> Kings had died out.
The idea, maybe. The mass movement originated in Seshnela, AFAIK.
> The main mass of 'Old Malkioni' who had not heard of Hrestol during the
> first age were the Sedalpists on the shores of Pamaltela.
Hardly - Enkloso and Vralos were first settled by Westerners in the Second Age. The Sedalpists are Vralos-based, to my knowledge, the Patriarch of Nikosdros being their head of church.
> A proto-
> Carmanian would have described himself as Hrestoli compared against these
> folks _if_ they were aware that these folk existed.
He could have compared himself to the pre-Arkat henotheist Janubians, for instance, if you believe the History of Fronelan Malkionism.
> However these people
> latter recieved the Hrestoli Revelations from the God Learners so at the
> time of the God Learner intervention, there were damn few Old Malkioni/
> Froalar's way dudes anywhere in the world.
True. The Old Malkioni of Fronela may well have died out before the Jrusteli arrived in Loskalm. Still their Magi might remember them, and equate a hardly understood movement in Seshnela or Ralios with them. Just like 18th century explorers still assigned one of Jakob's disappeared sons as ancestor of every human nation they found, or the 12th century news of Prester John, who "evidently" was a disciple of the Apostle John, or the apostle himself.
>Me>> Remember the True Hrestoli Way condemned
>>> the Serpent Kings as pagans and we have independant confirmation
>>> of this with the RQ Companion's story that the Seshnegi imported
>>> several Gods to Hrelar Amali.
>>According to Broken Council Guidebook, they burned it rather than
>>to import new deities...
> I would date this to the Silver Empire with its radical new wave of
> Monotheism.
Not bad: it happened during Dari's time, sometime around 294.
Over to Martin Crim on when Harmast fetched Talor:
> I'd say between 435 and 440 or so. 435 because that's when Talor cleansed
> Gbaji. It's plausible that Harmast pointed out the remaining Gbaji threat
> further east. Harmast's role has been overblown because we've seen the
> Orlanthi perspective only. To the devotees of Talor, he was just a messenger
> (an exalted enough role, but not on a par with being a hero).
Just the tool to return Talor from the dead, you mean? Sounds similar to the solar attitude towards Orlanth's LBQ, therefore bought.
>>Hmm. Talor was Arkat's rival, not enemy; [...]
>>In some sources Syranthir is even called an ally
>>of the Dark Empire, so I find it difficult to believe that they are really
>>that far on the anti-Arkat side. About as Arkat-friendly as my view on the
>>Aeolians, I'd say - "Arkat was a great man, but he also made great errors.
>>Don't try that at home."
> Those who say Arkat fell are toward the anti-Arkat end of the spectrum. The
> pro-Arkat types say he never fell, but "rose to higher secrets." For these
> (and they're by far the majority), Arkat is not a role model or even a
> positive figure. To them, a "balanced" view would be using Arkat as an
> object lesson on hubris.
Not on over-dedication to a goal?
I think that to most even of the pro-Arkat people will see Arkat as an object lesson - I doubt there are many people in Ralios who would make Arkat the ZZ Deathlord welcome in their lands, even in Naskorion.
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