David Hall wrote:
>>> In Orlanthi society there is increasingly less need for a link to
>>> nature, to man's hidden perceptions, to the beast within.
I replied:
>>Actually, this is a very recent development (brought about by Sartar and >>his heirs, or in Tarsh by Phoronestes and his heirs). The Orlanthi are >>still _much_ closer to nature than they were in the times of Harmast and >>Alakoring, IMO. The late Second Council era, and the EWF/counter-EWF era >>both were born by an urban Orlanthi society as "civilised" as Otkorion >>in Ralios, or southern Heortland. The kind of society urban Jrusteli >>scholars took root in in the early Second Age...
Peter opined:
> I think Joerg is confusing the experiences of the people who live in
> the cities and the people who live in the rural areas (the overwhelming
> majority).
No, I am definitely not confusing anything. Both the Second Council and the EWF gave rise to very structured governments, lesser urban centres dotting the landscape, increased trade and communication, and all the less pleasant side effects of civilization as well, like centralized tax/tithe systems (IMO an introduction by the organisational genius of Lokamayadon), centralized land-ownership in the hands of the nobility, heavily formalized law processes, infiltration of furrin ideas, loss of local identity to empire-wide fashions, and the lot.
> Furthermore in the great days of the Second Council,
> Lokaymadon and other Orlanthi were walking around with tattoos which
> bespeaks a heavy doses of ecstasy in their daily religious life.
So what? The Greek cult of Dyonisos was strong in urban centres, too, and so were the cults of Bastis in Egypt and Ishtar in Mesopotamia. All of them full of ecstatic experiences one way or the other, yet occurring in thoroughly civilized areas. Both the Nysalor era and the EWF era had mysticism rampant (as nowadays the Lunar Empire has, which has also managed to civilize its own Orlanthi - look at Sylila).
> The
> only example of facial tattoos you have in Present Day Sartar is Kallyr
> Starbrow.
Where did you get this from? By looking at the artwork? Then you haven't seen some of the artwork around here, which does have facial tattoos or at least woad marks. (BTW, didn't Londra of Londros have facial scars and/or tattoos in her picture in WF11?)
> As for the EWF, Joerg apparently forgets that its philosophy was an
> attempt to embrace the beast within.
Not the beast, but the dragon. The identification of these two may have been entirely the Western (God Learner) way to look at things. I mean, how draconic are the Telmori? According to GL theory, they were Hykimi, i.e. dragon-descendants.
> Look at the Elves of Rist
> (Hellwood is Rist with Chaos instead of Dragons)
I don't think that the Elder Races were that involved in the EWF dragon fancy. Certainly not the trolls, and while Isidilian was friendly to all others, I don't see him adopting draconic philosophy (but then Mostali are as far from beast or dragon as you can get). The elves of the Elder Wilds had joined the EWF when it came to them, as had several other Elder Races, but IMO more in an attempt to revive the World Council of Friends than in a wave of draconism.
> and the Dara Happan
> experiences of the EWF ('Monsters Are Good for Us'). This is not
> what I would call being divorced from the beasts within.
Well, what did damage the Dara Happans was the resistance to the monsters, and the invitation of the Carmanians to aid them therein. (It damaged the Carmanians, too.)
> In both these cases, the plight of the rural Orlanthi probably
> changed little.
Oh, it did. Hrestol Arganitis describes about 12 cities (of modern Sartarite city standards at least, which incidentally is a reduced form of the EWF architecture IMO) between Karse and Dendelle Lake. That is more than all of Dragon Pass has today. Between these cities there were market towns dotting the land, the size of modern day stockades. I doubt anyone in Dragon Pass lived longer than half a day's footmarch from the next market.
> I would place the evolution of the more modern
> Orlanthi (ie cults evolve to the more theistic cults as depicted
> in Gods of Glorantha) with the Orlanth Rex subcult.
Au contraire, the cult introduced by Alakoring served to particularize and redistribute the urban and priestly power, and reinstalled the more primitive tribal organisation which had survived in backwater Ralios. Alakoring damaged the Empire of the Wyrm's Friends more by inciting every minor local noble to toss out the Orlanth Dragonfriend priests who channeled all the power and profit to the top of the EWF pyramid than by killing Drang. Alakoring reinstituted individualism as one of the highest virtues, replacing the desire to become one with the World Dragon.
> Clan surpluses
> were redistributed to within the clan itself instead of the folk
> in the cities.
Nope. Both the Second Council and the EWF were very effective in calling in material and magical surplus via their religious network and accumulate them in their cities. The clans became mere systems of reference in face of the oneness with the mystical project the religious leaders pursued. Except for those who dissented and braved hardfisted suppression. Even the Old Day Traditionalists adopted the EWF civilisation in order to destroy it from within...
> The material life of the Orlanthi improves notably
> with the increasing gulf from the 'Old Ways'.
Look at Safelster for the increase in material life. On its fringes, you will find lots of Ralians still practising their Theyalan religions but heavily civilized. Naskorion is a prime example for an Orlanthi region turned civilized after adoption of variant ideas. Jonatela is another one.
The tragedy about civilized Orlanthi is that they lose their cultural identity and become relatively easy prey for whatever "new" religion is dominant - be it traditional Malkionism in 2nd century Slontos, Stygian Malkionism in Arkat's Dark Empire (followed by orthodox Jrusteli Malkionism paired with experimental henotheist Malkionism), Draconism in the EWF, or the Lunar Way in 3rd Age Peloria.
Fazzur Wideread is a prime example for an Orlanthi chieftain civilized in the fifth generation or so - he still is somewhat naive towards the intrigues and inner mechanics of the vast civilisation he represents, and he has retained "uncivilized" concepts of personal honour well exceeding his cultic obligations, but he is civilized through and through. His "clan", the Orindori, are able to field and support a sizeable army of veteran cavalry in peacetime, which tells us a lot about their infrastructure and their treatment of surplus.
(For a first generation Orlanthi under the press of civilisation, check Bolthor Hairybreeks...)
However, Fazzur did have his peers both in the 2nd Council (including Palangio's three generations of reign in Dragon Pass, Maniria and Slontos) and in the middle and late EWF. The nobility of that time wasn't exactly in charge of politics or policy, but they participated strongly in the profits flowing from their lands to the central organisation, and had a fairly good life. In the "rural" populace, specialisation bloomed with the vast trade volume and opportunities, crystallizing around the marketplaces. IMO a lot of the guilds mentioned in the (IMO still valid) RQ2 description of Theyalan urban background originated in this time, and survived outside of the Dragonkill area (Kethaela, Saird) well into the 3rd Age.
Ok, maybe this did not touch all (85%) of the Orlanthi, but definitely more than half of them, enough so that a generalization can be used. Unless you describe rural as "living two days hard ride from the next stead"...
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