Peter M.
>[re: Nysalor's glory] All we have is Lunar Mythologizing and
>Illumination.
And to the contrary we have only your inane Darwinistic rantings. The only hard evidence we have suggests that Nysalor's empire was superior at the transmission of ideas (it spread further, faster than the Lunar ideal) and was at least as complex socially.
>Merely retaining something a bygone generation has invented, does
>not mean that the later generation is LESS cultured than the
former.
No, but the inability of any Third Age civilization built upon the wreck of the EWF or God Learners to advance artistically, technologically, magically, or socially past their forebears does seem to imply that the Second Age dudes had something going for them.
In Dragon Pass, there was a high civilization with philosophical ideas so sophisticated that they cannot even be half-comprehended by the current inhabitants. Even the degenerate relics left by that civilization are impossible for any Third Age group to replicate.
>It is my opinion that most (~95%) of the achievements of the second
>age are part and parcel of the third age way of life.
This explains why they have all returned to tribal organizations, lost universal literacy, and engage in internecine warring, I suppose.
The Third Age runs over the relics of the Second Age like rats scrabbling through the ruins of old China or Egypt.
>Just because the Togukawa Shogunate of Japan outlawed firearms
does >not mean they are a lower culture than the Warring States
Period >that preceded it!
No. But the Warring States doesn't make a bad analogy for the Third Age nations, while the Tokugawa Shogunate tends to resemble the formalized and complex Second Age Empires.
>to assert that the second age is a magical age that can never be
>repeated is fallacious to me. The Lunar Empire, if it was
>transplanted back into the Second Age would be recognized as a key
>example of such.
No one has said that the Age of Empire is impossible of replication (though unlikely). The fact that the Lunar Empire would be able to hold its own in the Second Age only points up the huge gulf between that age and our own. In the Third Age there are but two vast Empires of any import -- the Lunars, and the Kralori. And the Kralori have been around since the dawn, so only one (1) Empire has arisen in this whole age, with no signs of any others forthcoming; as compared to 8 great Empires in the 2nd Age, plus probably at least a half-dozen smaller ones.
>We have a direct continuity with some of the Empires of the period.
What? The decadent Carmanians of the Lunar oppression? The pathetic remnants of Mokato, restricted to their single island and plotting dismally to regain lost glory through catspaws?
>Loskalm was able to throw of the rule of the God Learners in the
>nineth century and never looked back.
Loskalm is not the nation it once was. And the God Learners, as a cooperative mercantile consensus state, wasn't the hardest of all empires to throw off.
>Dara Happa didn't succumb to the EWF without a fight and it took
>them twenty years to do so.
Dara Happa has long been an adherent of the idea that the ancients were stronger than the moderns. This would merely reinforce this attitude.
>Look at Argrath ressurecting much of the magics of the EWF. Look
>what it did for him! He never even got as far as Alkoth in all his
>wars!
Yup. See how much better the real EWF was? He only had some of their "brute force magics" as you put it, not the philosophy and structure.
>>DARK EMPIRE: The place was ruled by Trolls!
>>Wasn't it you who stated that Trolls could be viewed as creatures
>>of the Id. Thus most of their culture could be viewed as
>>instinctive?
Much of their culture is instinctive. This means that the remainder of troll culture is very delicately balanced indeed. Troll politics are and have always been far more complicated than human, and troll plottings and secrets have always been deeper and longer-thinking than human ones.
If we rate the Dark Empire as a troll empire, than we can state that it was certainly the most highly-cultured troll empire that ever was, however it rated compared to a human one.
>>ELF EMPIRE: A continent spanning empire based on simple mind
>control does not imply higher culture whether you mean advanced
>technology or higher social sophistication
Okay, what does? The elves under Errinoru made a true fleet, and visited the corners of the world. Not seen before or since.
The elves under Errinoru began a massive project of replanting the Jolar barrenlands -- this was not just big in size, but required a lot of magical, spiritual, social, and political dexterity. Not seen before or since.
The elves under Errinoru set up a social system that enabled future groups of elves to be able to deal with humans on a political/social basis -- to make treaties and alliances and follow them. This was previously unknown, and is still not a feature of Genertelan elves, who make only private bargains. Admittedly, the elves to follow the Errinoru empire took advantage of this innovation, but this does demonstrate the inventive nature of Errinoru's approach to other cultures.
>>GOD LEARNER SESHNELA: Nor am I persuaded that the lot of the
>>God Learner farmer was much changed (ie they were mostly serfs
>>rather than free farmers/Kulaks).
> Sez who? The God Learners used automatons, mandrakes,
>homunculi, and other constructs to perform dull everyday tasks.
>>And every single farm had these marvellous contraptions?
Correct, at least IMO, and in their central lands.
>Given that in the RW not every farm has a tractor (the nearest
>analog I can think of), I am skeptical of the idea that this was
>standard equipment.
Every farm in the USA certainly has one.
>Sandy also mentioned the development of Industry. This seems to
have >been the preserve of the Zistorites. I do not believe
Seshnela, >Jrustela and Umathela were similarly affected.
None so blind as those who have a preconceived thesis.
>The six legged Empire worshipped Ompalam.
Not solely.
>It seems to me that the Empire was based on Coercion. Simply
saying >'Might is Right' does not auger well for a society's social
>sophistication
Saying Might Makes Right makes a society evil, not unsophisticated and crude. Higher culture and moral culture have nothing in common. Shaka's Zulus were more highly cultured than the tribes he overran, but 'twas still a malign empire. Stalinist Russia was certainly better-educated and more advanced than the Tsarist serf-state, but in evil it equalled or (IMO) surpassed the former.
Yes, the Six-Leggers were evil, and yes they suppressed opposition (though not for those who accepted their way), but nonetheless they were an advanced state, though doubtless the least pleasant of all the Second Age Empires.
>Modern Doraddi society is considerably more sophisticated than the
>Six Legged Empire given that they are forced to talk/argue/fight
>about things and create positions of Social Responsibility to deal
>with such things
Fine. Then by this logic I acquiesce that the Second Age was not more sophisticated than the Third. Just as troll society is far more sophisticated than human.
But the Second Age tended to have higher technology, better education, more powerful magic, more complex philosophies, and much larger social structures than the Third.
Sandy P.
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #326
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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