> Paolo Guccione doesn't like mixing divine magic and sorcery.
Nope! Nope! I do assume that many sorcerers become initiates and get rune magic. Please know that although in my description of Tiskos I have described the Guild of Protocol (i.e. the guild of Sorcerers) as a Rokari guild, in the original description, before I changed it to be compatible with HtWW1 and RoR writeups, its patron was Lankoring.
What I do not like is switching SPIRIT magic and sorcery (or Low Magic, if you wish, but please note that RQ4 is in no way official and commonly available: most campaigns use either RQ3 or Sandy's Sorcery, and both have no Low Magic. However, I am not against the idea of Low Magic - how can one get your PendragonPass sorcery in a non-Mac format?).
Spirit magic is learned by contacting the god' s messenger spirit. It is an experience of the Soul: in game terms, spirit combat (POW vs. POW). Sorcery is taught by a human master, even though a Priest, or learned from a book. It is an experience of the Mind: in game terms, an INT roll. IMHO, you cannot simply replace SM with sorcery and get the same cult structure as the common theistic cults. This is what was criticized by many in Nick's write-up.
> He errs in saying Naskorion is a highland. It's pretty clearly limited to
> the lowlands around the Doskior River when I look at the map.
Whoops, here I fumbled my World Lore. However, we seem to agree that Naskorion is not as fertile as Safelster.
Peter Metcalfe
> IMO there needs to be an intermediary stage (or range of such stages)
> between spirit magic and sorcery which depends on how 'logical' one
> is.
As I replied to David, Spirit magic and Sorcery are different in _nature_. I cannot see how you could define a range of variations between two intrinsically different things.
> Frex, in the more sophisticated theistic cults (not Malkionized),
> they wouldn't rely on spell spirits to learn spirit magic but instead
> meditate on an aspect of the God. Spell spirits is for backward
> heathens IMO.
Here I agree with you. This also reminds me about cult spirit spells having need of foci, a topic we have been discussing lately. But now I wonder why on the lozenge should the cult battle spells be the same as the primitive ones if they are of a different origin. I would very much prefer a different approach for non-runic magic taught by cults, barring shamanic cults. But the hope of anybody persuading the average Gloranthan player to drop easy access to spirit magic (the only one suitable for most adventurers, since it is reusable, easy to cast at starting levels and easy to learn without spending weeks in study) is very near zero. Humakti zero (0%), not Orlanthi zero (15%).
[Start Heresy]
One possible idea: cult non-runic magic is similar to Sandy's sorcery, with heavy restrictions in the vows one can take (see Nick's write-up of St. Orlanth). And all Initiates are _forced_ to be specialists in SS terms. This ties magic efficiency to behavior, allows for power, but only in spells that are actually related to your god's domain. This is more satisfactory than the "spirit magic taught by the cult" limitation, which is always circumvented in actual game play (there is always an associate lightbringer who teaches that spell). But it would require reworking almost everything our games!
[Stop Heresy]
Nick Effingham
On names (Ralian spelling)
> I chose Humakt rather
> than Humakt because Humakt is Arkat's Humath. Otkorion supports Arkat, ergo
> Humakt wins.
You are right. My usage of the Humath spelling in the Tiskos description is probably inconsistent. But maybe I can find some good explanation.
> St. Humakt is still closely related to the other gods since he
> is (a) a Lightbringer, (b) an apostle of the Invisible God himself who
> brought the Creator's Gift of Death to help end the tyranny of the Evil
> Emperor and (c) he is the Angel of Death, pledged to the service of St.
> Orlanth.
Clarification for newbies: Humakt is a Lightbringer and an Orlanth pantheon associate IN RALIOS. Do not even think of speaking this foul heresy in Sartar or Prax, or you will risk being targeted by some wandering Sever Spirit.
Probably the replacement of Flesh Man (the Mortal aspect) with Humakt (the Death aspect) in the Ralian Lightbringer myth was achieved by means of HeroQuesting after the dawning. It may be a very good example of major changes in myth performed on a local basis. Guess who was the HeroQuester ...
Saints
Phil Hibbs suggested blessings for the Henotheist versions of the Lightbringers. Nick E. rejected the idea. So do I. There is no need to assume that there have been a total absorption of the cults into the Malkioni way.
Many people tend to describe culturally homogeneous cults in a given area. This is wrong. Think of Buddhism: many knowledgeable buddhists say that Siddharta was no god, and Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion, at least in tis founder's intention. But most commoners in the Far East think of Buddhism as a cult, and worship the Bodisatthvas as well. But they are all members of the same cult.
A more startling RW example: my city's patron saint, St. Rosalia, was a hermit and a virgin. Her bones were found in a cave centuries ago. But many _catholics_ nowadays say that she did not exist at all, and the bones belonged to some Neanderthal or the like. I have even heard catholic _priests_ say that. Others would rather be killed than admit this. In a nearby area colnized by Albanians in the Middle Ages there are two different catholic churches, the latin and the greek one. The greek church is thoroughly different from the latin one: different rituals, different canon language (greek), even priests who marry and have children! And both are Roman Catholic, even sharing the same bishop!
If such differences are possible in a monolyth like the Roman Catholic Church, why should bubbling crucibles of ideas and beliefs as Otkorion or Naskorion be more homogeneous? Barring purges, which are not Surantyr's or Rainard's style. So I think there are myriads of ways the Saints (including Lightbringer "Saints") are worshiped in Ralios, even different ways in the same area. I bet Otkorion sorcerers use sorcery-affecting blessings from "saints", while peasants get stand-alone runespells from "gods", definitely more useful to them.
http://www.geco.it/~guccione ------------------------------
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #248
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