Whee! Now I have six dogs. Rosie had three pups, all healthy and strong. One managed to start nursing within seconds of being born, before she was even separated from her placenta! There must be a good myth in that somewhere...
Chris - I liked the notes from Agricola - the ways which elves aould surprise and confuse humans are interesting for me. Don't forget, many plants use other species, especially animals, in ways that are advantageous to both. Flowering plants produce nectar to attract insects for pollination. Plants produce sweet and nutritious fruits to entice animals to eat them and spread the seeds in their droppings. (Some seeds won't ever germinate without first going through an acidic stomach.)
Therefore, some elves may interact with other species to their mutual benfit. OTOH, perhaps those Gloranthan plants that have produced elves - - mobile offshoots - have done so to solve their mobility problems.
Andrew - I've been anjoying the Kalikos icebreaker stories!
Thanks Alex, Peter, and Joerg (and Jeff "the Vingkotling" Richard) for your input on the origins and relationships of the Pelorian horse peoples. A few comments:
AF> (A couple of Cons ago I tried to get Greg to comment on some old
throwaway note (RQ Companion, maybe)
implying that DH he gotten sun worship from the Pentans. Oops. (I
think his "comment" was to issue a Mysterious Greg Smile, nod sagely,
and say something like "It did kinda suggest that, didn't it?")
Not surprised at all.... what use do marsh dwelling rice farmers have for horses, sun worship, and patriarchies?
SF>Isn't Torang relatively Pelandan-ish anyway, from what little we know
about
its language? All the Paradisial Poseurs had rather Pelandan-sounding
names anyway,
I don't know. Those Rhinliddi are a puzzlement to me. Riding large, predatory birds over grasslands, apparently the terror of the Osliran farmers and river folk -they seem a distinct folk from the (relatively) peaceful Pelandan farmers. The Janarong horsemen exterminated their birds (easy to do if they lay vulnerable nests like ostiches do), and the Dara Happan emperors were very concerned with conquering and controlling Rhinliddi. Their presence in Dara Happa seems older then the horse peoples, because in the old stories of the arming of Murharzarm, his mount was an augner, not a horse. And "Paradisial" sounds more grandiose to me then the old Pelandan descriptions. Perhaps Brightface was one of this lot.
But anyway, I had assumed that because Rufelza was from Torang, New Pelorian might have a higher porportaion of theTorangi dialect than would otherwise be expected.
PM> I forgot to add that the Hyalorings IMO are Pentans rather than Zarkosite Pelorians having been gifted the City of Nivorah by Emperor Manarlavus in return for suppressing the Rikestings.
The Roofer? But Nivorah was way south of the dome. And I'm not sure Nivorah was ever a true city. I think the DH's may have assumed that the Hyalorings came from a city - they were a great people, they must have had a city...
PM>Why do you think that the East Pelorian Farmers are Theyalans? They
never
got that far nor ruled Peloria for large periods of time.
By East Pelorians, I mean the Sairdites and Zarkosites. The Zarkosites (of 300ST, anyway) seem to be Theyalan - they marked Khordavu with tattoos, a practice foreign to Pelandans. They herded goats and used slings. (Aren't goats still accepted in Aggar?) And the Sairdites seemed to be full of Vingkotling tribes, home to Harmast and that lot.
The Balazaring do seem to be Pelorians linguistically. I think the Theyalan Zarkosites and Sairdites pushed up from the south very early in the Dark Ages.
PM(?)> But I think that the Horse Riders that ruled Peloria were Zarkosite Pelorians rather than Pentans having picked up the horses from stray pentan herds near Zarkos (where the Jenarong genealogy said they came).
Please pardon me for not having maps at work. Is not Zarkos considerably south of the Arcos Valley? (I know, they sound similar.) Jeff and I worked out that the Janorong, chariot folk with a fondness for stars, came out of th Arcos Valley, up near Pent. The Hyaloring came from the south, had Vingkotling names, and rode horseback, not on chariots. And the two hated each other. The Hyaloring only ruled DH for two emperors - Vuranostum and his son - then the Jenarong came back.
I do like the idea of Antirius being a local, leader form of Turos. It fits well with my pet (but rapidly disintegrating) theory of Yelm as merely "Lodril Rex".
>This implies that the World Council got *its* chronology wrong which
makes it difficult for me to accept. Notablely the date of the
missions to Peloria and their susequent 'disappearance' occur when the
world council has already kicked the nomads out.
Which nomads? There were two distict MAIN groups - Janarong & Hyaloring - - and then I think the Jenarong split into factions. I think the world council kicked out the nomad traditionalists, leaving the sedentary Jenarongs in charge. These early emperors still had copies of the old "How to Rule Through Blood and Terror" textbook, and they responded with typical Jenarong hospitality to the World Council missionaries. (Maybe the World Council Theyalans reminded the Jenarong of those despicable Hyaloring?)
>But the Khordavu dynasty doesn't have any reverence to horses.
It's not mentioned explicitly, but by then the horse is probably taken for granted as an instrument of power. Note that Eusibus, a contemporary of Khordavu, is one of only two emperors NOT listed as either a chariot or a horse emperor. (Coronated with the old Ovosto rights, he was probably an indigenous, proto - Dara Happan, whatever that was.) But I digress.
PM> Given that Antirius has roots in Dara Happa, IMO Antirius would have been thought to be the Sun at the Dawn and not as a result of Hyaloring occupation.
Good point.
>Nice if true, but the names of some of the Jenarong Emperors are good
Pelorian names.
Good point and excellent examples. But Joerg is right: A Jenoarong horse lord might call himself "Bubba the Magnificant", but the later historians who talked to Pelandan/Dara Happan speakers are going to get the guys' popular name, like "Eats Women". (Who would name HIMSELF "Son of Evil?)
OTOH, you bring up a good point - those Dara Happan emperor names have quite a lot in common with old Pelandan. Therefore, Dara Happan must be similar to old Pelandan, or contain a large part of it. (Maybe like English, where common words are old Saxon/Low German, fancier words are old French?)
Unless, the Jenarongs/Pentan are also Pelorian? Does G:G say anything about Pentan? I had the impression that Pent was settled by escaped Jenarongs, and that there were no humans there before. As to why the Rhinliddians didn't go there - perhaps the trolls there kept raiding their nests? Not until the the completely mobile horse was domesticated was Pent liveable. (Wild theory, but it makes sense.)
Option 3 - Addi interpreted old Pelandan wordsdirectly into Dara Happan, and the old Pelandan words have not seen print yet. But that's no fun.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to recant and say that Dara Happan is mostly Pelandan, with some Janarong mixed in.
> the Saird Hyalorings effectively disappear after
110 ST as a result of their expulsion from Saird and the
subsequent extermination by Huradabba.
What of the fabulous Theyalan horse tradition of Scylila?
>Saird Hyalorings know of Hyalor as do the Pent Nomads. But the
Horse Lords of Dara Happa don't know of any relationship with
Hyalor.
Hmm.... Perhaps some Hyaloring also went to Pent. They certainly didn't leave a lasting impression on Dara Happa. More evidence: funerary customs. The Hyaloring, like the Grazers, exposed their dead on platforms in the wind. The Jenarong and the Dara Happan leaders consume their dead with fire.
I CAN see the origins of the Pentans cattle scism going back to the Janarong and the Hyaloring, though. I think the Jenarong did heard cattle, or at least picked them up in Peloria.
JB>I admit that I am a fan of migration theories in the origin of
peoples, but
>to me the migration pattern of the Hyalorings is clear - out of Sacred Prax
>into Vingkotling lands, and on into the Pelorian lowlands.
I don't think the Prax part is relevant for the Pelorian end of things - - well, maybe so. I think the Hyaloring came from Saird/Scylilla. Greg has just written a bit on Gloranthan horses, and he has the Hylor breed of Scylilla as the fastest, most magical horse in Glorantha. They do not breed true if removed from Scylila. (The Grazer pony is the second best, but will not breed true to non-Grazers.) There is something special about Scylilla and horses. There is didly-squat about horses in Prax.
Besides, I once asked Greg at a con if the Hyaloring came from Prax, and he emphatically denied it. Peter gives other good reasons why Hyalorings do not seem to have much in common with Praxians.
PM>My evidence for the migration of the Hyalorings into Saird stems from the Entekosiad. .... It can be inferred that the Hyalorings are not in Saird at this time or else Gartemirus would have heard about it - he is not suprised by the appearance of the Zarkosite for instance.
Hmm... or that the man on a horse is from the northeast, beyond the birdfolk of Rhinliddi, (Arcos). He may not have known about them, never having been beyond the fearsome bird people. If the ritual involved summopning a person from each of the four quarters, then the Northeast quarter would have to be accounted for in a way other than the birdfolk. Zarkos was the southeast.
Enough for now.
Pam
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #306
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