If this indeed the case, then how do they interpret their own variant of Lighbringer worhsip? Regardless of cultural differences, Orlanth is hostile to the Red Goddess. Do these 'Lunarised Orlanthi' pull the 'Goddess Hide' dodge and worhsip Goddess' like Ernalda publicly, while worshipping Orlanth in private? Do the Lunars just let them slide? (That I very much doubt.) Do they worhsip instead a more tame set of air gods, such as Molanni and her kin? If these Orlanthi in Tarsh do not actively oppose the Red Goddess or are religiously friendly to her, then they maybe culturally Orlanthi, but not religiously. Please explain...:)
Chris B
>
> From: "Carlson, Pam" <carlsonp_at_wdni.com>
> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:59:00 -0700
> Subject: Riddle & Elmal
>
> Mike Mittmann
>
> >>Why are these numbers in the following order?
> >>854907632
>
> >Because the author is not a programmer?
>
> True enough! But that is not the illuminating answer.
> Any takers? As with illumination, anyone figuring this one out will
> IMMEDIATELY know thwy have found the answer...
> ------------------------------
> Owen Jones politely asks:
> > is it possible that Elmal is entirely a construct of Argath's heroquesting?
>
> Not likely - "Elamalus" was a barbarian deity noted by the Dara Happans
> before the dawn.
>
> Many folks have answered Owen's questions quite well. I'd like to add -
>
> Elmal was the heroic deitiy who stayed around after the sun went away,
> and gave people light (but not much heat). Thus, Elmal guards the home
> and people during rough times. He is loyal, tough, and persistant, and
> honest - like Yelmalio. Some clans consider him an ancestor - mostly
> those that do a lot of farming in the lowlands. (Because Elmal's
> fertility magic is darned handy there!) IMO, he is worshipped largely
> among the Pelorian Orlanthi - big in Scylilla, Vanch, and Holay.
>
> 1) Remember, the gods are usually thought of as giant spirits, not
> physical objects. Orlanth is not the wind and thunder - he EXPRESSES
> himself through wind and thunder. The same is true of the sun. The big
> hot glowy thing in the sky is not Elmal OR Yelm - it's a big hot glowy
> thing. It's THERE because of Orlanth, who brought it back from the
> underworld, where it went as a result of Orlanth's slaying the emperor.
> (Which was a kinslaying - The Emperor was his uncle, remember.) To get
> it back (and Ernalda, who was taken down there in all the ensuing
> mayhem), he had to reconcile himself with the Emperor.
>
> Kinslaying is VERRRY bad stuff. It leads to bad juju. So, a big act of
> kinslaying could easily cause the physical world to fall apart.
>
> 2) Here is a point that Jeff Richard beat into me a few years ago - and
> I have now come to believe it - especially since I've seen Greg use it
> and stick to it: cultures generally account for the whole world within
> their own pantheons. It would be ludicrous for the Orlanthi to look at
> the sun and see the Evil Emperor (an Orlanthi construct that denote the
> abuse of power), or Yelm, a foreign sun-deity. They look up and see the
> happy glowy thing that Orlanth restored and Elmal influences, that makes
> their crops grow and makes sunshine for alynxes to snooze in.
>
> Likewise, it is ludicrous for Dara Happans to assume that the air, wind,
> and thunder are the domain of some foreign deity. They are of course
> just a few of the physical manifestations of beloved Entekos and
> fearsome Shargash. Orlanth is simply some foreign demon that is
> worshipped by hordes of invading barbarians. Rebellous Terminous is the
> one who killed Yelm, the Source of all Justice, the stabilizing force in
> the universe. (RT is NOT Orlanth - it is a constuct that denotes a
> Denial of Justice.) When this happened, the hot firey thing fell out of
> the sky - but that was only a part of Yelm. Other, worse things
> happened, too - Kazkurtem (ie, chaos) crawled into the world.
>
> Therefore, you see both cultures agree on the same events and principles
> (ie, stability overthrown, choas enters) they just weigh them
> differently. Where DH's see comfy order, Orlanthi see repression.
> Neither culture needs a foreign deity to explain the state of the
> world.
>
> During the First Age, the World Council of Friends (?) combined the
> myths as part of a plan to unite and reconcile two of its largest
> member cultures. I don't think their effort made a lasting impression,
> other than the Orlanthi - when they encounter the DH's, see Yelm as AN
> Evil Emperor, and the DH's, when they encounter Orlanthi - think of
> Orlanth as ONE who delights in denying the Just Order of the Universe.
>
> All in the SFC Glorantha, of course...
>
> Pam
>
This gets back to a big, bad, old arguement here on the Digest... The
objective or subjective nature of Gods. This is my feeling...
Orlanth is Rebellious Terminous, as known by the Dara Happans. In the GodTime, the war which was fought was an unimaginable one by inhuman forces, forces which interacted with humanity for various purposes. Because Godtime is such an unimaginabe time for most ordern human beings in Glorantha today, human beings and other races use the structure of Myth to interpret what occured. Thus, Gods who appear to be contradicting themselves canhave multiple expressions to different peoples. Frex, Yelmalio is Elmal, who is seen differently by different peoples. in response to a Divination, Elmal/Yelmalio IMO would answer "Why yes, that is the face I present to the Barbarian peoples, my faithful servant. They hold to their honor, as you hold to yours." Politically incompatible answers would be of course suppressed by the High Priesthoods of both religions so as to preserve their own positions. (Light Son to Light Captain) "If the faitful knew that our Yelmalio was also some upstart barbarian god, their would be an uproar and loss of faith! keep that vision to yourself, Harvald." IMO, that would perhaps be the best fix for MGF.
IMG, Yelmalions and Elmali both recognise the fact that they worship the same God, and treat each other in a cool, reserved manner, but trust each other in the sense that while the other guy may be incorrect in regards to details, that they both follow the trustworthy and honorable Sun Dome. Elmali wll serve as liasons between Yelmalions and Lightbringer cults when troubles with Chaos arise, for example, or the cults otherwise need to interact. I treat this as a similar situation to if foreign cults of the same God encounter each other (can the Storm Voice from Dragon Pass restore his spells at the shrine of West King Wind?) An Elmali can restore his usual array of Rune Magic or even participate in ceremonies at a Yelmalio temple! However, he may find aspects of it distasteful, such as how Orlanth, an associated deity to Yelmalio, is treated. Likewise, a Light Son worshipping at a Dragon Pass Elmal shrine may feel the need to wash after beinga round his Barbarian brethren. While the essence of Yelmalio be at the barbarian shrine he worships at, he would regard the facts of Myth that the barbarians hold to 'just all wrong'. The decline of Elmal worship in Dragon Pass may well be to intense proseletyzing efforts by the Sun Domers there (Kinda like Evangelical Missionaries in South America, converting traditionally Catholic Populations.)
Peace!
Chris B
>
> From: <TTrotsky_at_aol.com>
> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:31:52 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Answers and Aphids
>
> Shon Vaughan:
>
> << Is it possible to remain a devout Orlanthi while enjoying the benefits and
> luxuries of Lunar citizenship?>>
>
> I've always felt that to be an actual Lunar _citizen_ you need to be an
> initiate of a Lunar cult. The excellent write-up of Moonson in TOTRM#16
> supports this view. I don't see how you could be a devout Orlanthi and a
> Lunar initiate at the same time, so the answer to the question actually posed
> is 'no'. OTOH, it is possible IMO, to live in a strongly Lunarised area and
> remain a reasonably devout Orlanthi, although probably not a fanatical one!
> Still, it would be difficult, since you will tend to be heavily taxed and
> generally put upon by the authorities. I don't imagine very many Orlanthi do
> so, but I think it's possible. Areas that are only partially Lunarised, like
> Pavis or Sartar, are full of Orlanthi, but they don't get 'benefits and
> luxuries'.
>
> <<Do mainline Orlanthi treat these Orlanthi as traitors?>>
>
> Some of them do, sure. To become a Citizen, you'd have to give up your
> god, so they'd have a fair point! But it depends on the Orlanthi. Many
> Issaries traders, frex, will probably be willing to trade with such
> turncoats, although they're unlikely to be too friendly. As a general rule
> I'd say that the Orlanthi living in cities have a less violent attitude to
> the Lunars than the backwoods clans. They get to see the benefits of Lunar
> living, and can't afford to be too openly hostile. Of course, that isn't to
> say that they wouldn't support an uprising when they had the opportunity.
In general, I agree with these statements. Also, in support of these views, Id like to add that the Sartarites were nice and civilized, especially in the cities, before the Lunars came! King Sartar laid down a nice set of laws that not only worked, but treated people pretty fairly. Compared with Lunar slavery practices and the like, I feel that it was only a matter of time before the two kingdoms clashed, simply due to philosphical differences, as well as political and religious. Not to say that the Lunar Way is totally evil and the like either... There are many Lunars who are noble, trustworthy and humanitarian...But the interesting thing about the Hero Wars in Glorantha is that amongst other things, they're clashes of philosophy and ways of life.
As for uprisings and the like... I would see Urban Orlanthi supporting
their
religious way of life by the use of Orlanth's mobility aspsect. Hidden,
portable shrines would enable Orlanth worshippers to remain close to
their
God while foiling the Lunar authorities. This could be the basis of a
series
of Lunar-based adventures, as Lunar authorities send groups of temple
Initiates to track down those damn Storm worshippers. Teleport and
Guided Teleport
are really great for this kind of thing. Perhaps this is a reason why
Lunar
missionaries have not been able to stamp out Orlanth worship in many of
the
captured territories... Because they haven't been able to capture or
kill
the temple heiracrhies!
All hail the Lightbringers, saviours of the universe! Chris B
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #471
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