>>Just because they are Hsunchen does not mean they are limited
>>to Lion spirits. In addition to Rathor, the Rathori worship
>>Agikoros the Fire God, Silent Stalker the Hunter, Enimipol the
>>Beast Mother, Dog Brother, Thanz the acorn spirit, Burrowing
>>Toad Mother and Bluben. I and many Rathori would be very
>>suprised to hear them dismissed as 'measly beast spirits'.
>They are exactly what I meant. Thanks for digging up the names of these
>obscure spirit cult entities, and give me just one more powerful deity the
>Rathori worship. Even Frona (a one-spell-wonder grain-and-land goddess)
>would do...
Who do you think the Fire God *is*? Lodril under another name perhaps? He is also contacted by the Trolls using Shamanistic rites. The Beast Mother is undoubtedly an aspect of the Earth Mother (the later being obscure to the Rathori because they don't practice much agriculture). The Rathori Shamans can even contact Earthmaker who made the World, is he a 'measly beast spirit' or a 'real god'?
>>Joerg is also apparently ignorant that Shamanistic Cultures can
>>achieve a high degree of urban sophistication to wit the Maya
>>(cf "Forest of Kings" by Linda Schele).
>Not quite ignorant. Add the Korean shamanism. But this isn't anywhere
>near the beast totem shamanism you'd expect from "hsunchen".
Why are you placing totally spurious limitations on what the Hsunchen Shamans can or cannot do? This is on par with AD&D's priests should not be allowed to use edged weapons. Look at the Ituvani of the Dorastan Telmori. Quite sophisticated magicians yet they are still Hsunchen.
>The Pendali sorcerers were likely more similar to the Orathorn sorcerers
>(which I doubt ever were part of the Kingdom of Logic) than Zzabur's or the
>Vadeli magic.
Oh dear, the definitions game again. Well if we are moving away from the Sorcery of the West so that the Pendali sorcerers can be said to be sorcerers then I must point out that the Ituvanu of the Telmori can also be called sorcerers yet they mesh quite well with the Hsunchen society of the Telmori.
And I fail to see how the Basmoli either learn their sorcery from or evolve a sorcery like the Orathorni unless they had close contact or they had similar backgrounds (either are unlikely).
>>>Some of them lived in cities, others had agriculture, and some had lion
>>>companions.
>>If Joerg believes that I disagree with any of this then he hasn't
>>been following the debate very well. What I disagreed on was
>>whether the Pendali had sorcerers and/or iron armour.
>If a culture has agriculture, it ceases to be Hsunchen.
The God Learners knew full well that the Basmoli lived in cities and practiced agriculture, it was written in their history books. Yet they still classified them as Hsunchen and saw no contradiction in doing so. Thus I think the actual definition of what it takes to be considered a Hsunchen is a lot more fluid than beast worshipping people who practice only hunting and gathering.
>Look at the Rathori,
>they even have houses, but they practice neither agriculture nor
>horticulture, out of choice.
>Now, either the Malkioni adopted shamanistic practises to survive, or the
>Pendali magics weren't that "primitive hsunchen". Your choice, Peter.
Where did I ever say that the Pendali magics were 'primitive hsunchen', Joerg? I've denied that their magicians were _sorcerers_ and despite your protestations about the infallibility of the Book of Kings, I still affirm that position. Could you at least respond to what people are actually saying?
Hasni Mubarak:
>Ok, I can understand that people might not recognize that the big
>glowing ball of light in the sky is actually Yelm:the sun. However,
>I can't reconcile [this with?] the basic myth of "Orlanth kills
>Yelm, so Glorantha is dark and the Trolls flee Hell because it's
>all bright and hot and stuff, but Orlanth frees Yelm from Hell, and
>now the sun is there half the day and in Normal Glorantha the other
>half."
That is a myth which is not believed by every gloranthan. The Trolls say that Death (not Yelm) came to Wonderhome and drove them out. Later Death was brought back by the hoomans because they could not withstand the Uz in the darkness. The Malkioni probably believe it was the evils of the Vadeli that caused the Sun to go away and only Malkion brought set the universe right with the I Fought We Won.
The basic plot is that the Sun disappeared for many years some 1600 years ago and only now rises and sets. The names of the Sun (Yelm, Somash, Ehilm) and the reasons why the sun did so (ie he was killed, the World turned upside down) are artifacts of the culture telling the story.
>Also, does anybody happen to have a (fairly) complete list of what would
>be the Esrolian Pantheon?
The Six Earths: Ernalda, Asrelia, Babeester Gor, Ty Kora Tek,
Maran Gor and Voria.
The Husbands of Ernalda: Orlanth, Magasta, Argan Argar, 'Yelmalio',
Flamal, Storm Bull, Zorak Zoran, 'Yelm'.
The 'Yelmalio' of Esrolia is probably not the Sun Dome Yelmalio but rather the Elf Yelmalio. The 'Yelm' is probably the local sun god rather than the Dara Happan Cult. The cult will have had many diverse influences from Dara Happa, the Orlanthi and the God Learners.
There are other gods like Kethaa and Entruli. Nick had a tale about them but I can't find it at the mo.
Nils Weinander:
Me>> But the Masters
>> know the Truth is otherwise. When Emperor Yanoor committed
>> suicide to avoid capture by the New Dragons Ring, thousands
>> of blameless people who had followed his instructions all
>> their lives followed his example and did likewise. Yet you
>> can see them today as the Hungry Ghosts. How can you say
>> that this is the True Kralorelan Way?.
>They are hungry ghosts because Yanoor died prematurely.
>The transformation of his soul into a dragon soul wasn't
>complete, so he couldn't go to Vithela to bring the
>faithful dead with him to wherever. If the Kralorelan
>way didn't work, as you say, wouldn't there be hungry
>ghosts from the reigns of other emperors?
Because when the other Emperors turned into True Dragons, they ate all the ghosts residing in the so-called Palace of Excellent Reward to fuel the Dragon's passage into the World Beyond. But since Yanoor's transformation was not yet complete, he was unable to do so and thus the Hungry Ghosts came to the Land of Splendor.
The New Dragons Ring could have returned the Ghosts to the palace but it was found that the ghosts had been hungry there while Yanoor still lived! They were allowed to roam the land free and several orders were set up to ensure that they could be fed until the time that they could be freed from their inhuman bondage. Most of these humanitarian orders were disbanded by the Mandarins when they came back and the suffering of the Hungry Ghosts has increased.
>> Even the Mandarins knew the Truth. Instead following their
>> Emperor's example, they fled like craven rats to Bliss in
>> Ignorance.
>Being closer to enlightenment than the common people
>who committed suicide, they knew the full extent of
>the horror of the emperor's premature death, so they
>fled to BiI in order to regroup and device a way to
>oust the usurpers and reinstate the true Kralorelan
>way. Which they also eventually succeeded in doing.
They avoided committing suicide because they knew that without the protection of the Dragon Emperor, they would be dragged by fanged demons to the Level Below Vermin whereupon they will suffer eternal torment for the enormity of their crimes.
But if they knew the full extent then why didn't they tell the people? Why did they not say 'Do not hang yourselves for it is of no use. Put away the knife for it is too late'? The Truth, as the Masters can show, is that the Mandarins *encouraged* the carnage so that the New Dragons could not find and punish them. They also hoped with the release of the dead, the New Dragons would have to flee Kralorela. Lastly but not the least, they looted the houses of those who had followed Yanoor's example. This plunder was used to bribe the Huan To so they would aid the Mandarins in returning to the Land of Splendor and curse us all.
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #484
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