Martin Laurie:
I guess some do. I don't. I think there's an underlying objectivity to Glorantha that isn't necessarily reflected in the Monomyth.
>The whole point of the subjective view is that _anything_ created,
>worshipped or viewed with cultural prejudice WILL be subjective.
That's one opinion. If you believe that everything about a religion is created/developed etc. by that culture.
>The Dara Happans aren't right, the Orlanthi aren't right, the
>Malkioni aren't right because there _is_ no right!
Hmmm, true up to a point. It's either the subjectivist or the dewy-eyed optimist in me but I'd say there is such a thing as an objective right and wrong.
>Its patently bloody obvious to anyone who has studied even basic =
>school history from differing points of view but most of us don't
>because actually acknowledging that our culture might be wrong or =
>not completely right is a bit disturbing, a bit too close to the =
>mark.
Agreed. Canada isn't the greatest country in the world and there are a lot of injustices inherent in the system.
>How will a Gloranthan be any different? In fact,
>given their terrible communication tech and the paucity of written
>works, it is likely that a Gloranthan will be monumentally more
>hidebound in their cultural beliefs than anyone in the RW.
Not necessarily books and good telecommunications have never prevented anyone from being ignorant or hidebound.
>If this principle is taken as obvious and sure the the nature
>of worship and magic in Glorantha must be then examined because
>the magic will be subjective too and so will the myths and so,
>therefore, will the Gods.
Huh? This does not follow. You can quite easily and logically claim that magic is a fundamental force in Glorantha that can be approached and manipulated in more than one fashion. Engineers and architects approach building construction in very different fashions (if you ever heard any engineers complain about architects you'll know what I'm talking about).
>To suggest that the Orlanthi monomyth is RIGHT is insane. It =
>means that every other culture in Glorantha is WRONG and frankly =
>this is so illogical it makes my teeth hurt. To suggest that the
>Gods are real and manipulate their worshippers runs into the =
>problem that the Gods myths don't match, that the worhsippers
>views don't match and the worship itself varies depending on the
>area and culuural inclinations of the said worhsippers - yet they
>still get the magic their worship defines! If this is undoubltedly =
>true, which it is, then how the hell are the gods these immutable =
>sefl-aware entities that fiddle with the universe?
Kind of inflammatory language don't you think? (Or do you subscribe to some martial arts school of philosophy?) Your whole argument/ problem can be countered by the following:
>It doesn't work, its not logical and its a fallacious argument.
Makes as much sense as yours.
>The hoary old argument of "Well I don't like subjective views =
>because as a GM I don't know whats real and as a GM I want the =
>absolute truth in a book somewhere." really annoys me. As a GM
>of many games, I've never needed to rely on a manual of what is
>right or wrong - I just do what I like to do and if a player =
>objects, well there're other GMs and other games - bye bye.
Since when does wanting some objective underlay mean you can't enjoy the rich lush subjective overlay? To each their own. You're against black and white arguments but you seem pretty keen to tar all objectivists with the same brush your "some's" and "most's" notwithstanding.
>In Glorantha, _your_ Glorantha, its your world. Do what you
>like but DON'T expect a nice book stating the "facts" of the Gods
>cos this is very boring indeed and not an accurate study of the
>way a Glorantha would be.
Your opinion. Others might not agree. Unless I'm wrong there's room
on this digest for divergent opinions. Let us awful objectivists know if
there
isn't and maybe we can start our own digest elsewhere. alt.Glorantha
anyone?
>My feeling is that most objectivists love the depth of Glorantha
>only so long as they don't have to think about the consequences
>of its complexity. =
Get a life. That's your opinion. I'm as opposed to what I consider muddleheaded subjectivists who think nobody is wrong and nobody is right too as you seem to be opposed to objectivists. Especially those who are intolerant of others viewpoints.
The "reality" is that when push comes to shove, when the fat hits the fire,
when
it's time to separate the men from the boys, etc., etc. the world as the
Gloranthans
themselves would probably view it looks the same whether your approaching it
from a subjectivist viewpoint or an objectivist one. Some people just have
issues
or details they'd like to resolve to better understand the world they're
running. I think
some people put too much emphasis or belief or faith(?) in the Monomyth or
the Orlanthi too.
But I don't want to deny them their right to participate in this discussion.
Oliver D. Bernuetz
bernuetz.oliver_at_cbsc.ic.gc.ca
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