Peter fields Jain's king list as proof that the Telmori weren't totally wiped out by Argrath of Pavis. Maroflo and Halifitoor sound awfully similar to Tarsh kings of the Illaro dynasty, though, and Jain (the collector of that list) is probably the worst historian and scholar whose writings appear in KoS (which does say something, given that CHDP is written by a Vendref...).
>[BTW it is my feeling that the Sacred Kings list actually is
>composed _after_ the Illiteracy era rather than before. Look
>at the events in Londario's reign.]
IMO it is composed during a respite during the early Illiteracy era. At least that is what the Londario story proposes - the Illiteracy disease is already spreading, has affected the majority of people, and only a few stalwarts at a magical place almost out of time keep up the knowledge they have left. (IMO the Skyfall is a manifestation of Godtime in northern Dragon Pass, just as the Eternal Battle is in Prax.)
>As for Argrath's original fight with the Telmori, the dating
>in the Saga indicates a date of between 1627 and 1630. This
>is made plausible by the Telmori swearing revenge after some
>obscure quarrel in 1629 (according to Minaryth Blue). Although
>this refers to Argrath of Pavis, I do not think Bad Dream
>Enostar is referred to but rather Garrath who also came from
>Pavis.
Possible. After all, of 1629 Argrath had no real power base in Sartar, and the core units of his Free Army (Twin Spears, Sword Brothers and Bullocks, the 6-5-5-0s of DP boardgame, plus the 4**-3-5-X Pavis Royal Guard) seem to be of Pavisite origin. The obscure quarrel will have been between Argrath and Kallyr, probably over how aggressive Sartarite politics vs. Lunar Tarsh should be.
Or over his marriage to the Feathered Horse Queen, if Densesros of CHDP fame did get that date right. (He remains oddly silent about this incident...)
>Pavis is too far away for Minaryth Blue to know much
>about it including its ruler IMO or for its ruler to be involved
>with a quarrel with the Telmori so he is identifying a local
>person of importance here.
Minaryth has served under a close companion of Argrath, though, Jarang Bladesong, who led a contingent of Sartarite militia to aid Brian. They came too late, Harrek had already slain Brian, but Argrath was there too (according to the Saga) and fought off Harrek under the Guardian Cranes. This means he would have known Garrath (who IMO is _the_ Argrath, the one grown up among the Starfire ridges as stated in DP boardgame, (foster-) son of a stickpicker).
[...]
>What then was the cause of the dispute? Looking at Argrath's
>ancestors, I see on p216 of KoS that King Ortossi of the Colymar
>disappeared while hunting the Blue Wolf that had haunted his
>dreams. If this was a family curse (perhaps the Blue Wolf stole
>the Black Spear when King Ortossi was sleeping?), then Argrath
>may have lifted it by hunting down and killing the Blue Wolf which
>must have been a powerful heroquest. Of course, it would have
>also upset the wolf-loving Telmori. And when Argrath comes to
>power in slightly suspect circumstances, his feud with the Telmori
>takes a new twist (as they can call into question his descent
>from Sartar).
Nice idea. I doubt that this was the quarrel Argrath had with them.
There are numerous possible conflicts he could have had with the Telmori.
>However note the Saga refers to the use of the Black Spear in
>subduing the Telmori. This is made possible by Argrath bringing
>back the Aurochs. However Minaryth Blue doesn't note the
>presence of Aurochs in Dragon Pass until 1641!
1641 is the first Aurochs _hunt_ in ages. Since Argrath claims to have brought back these beasts, he might have been protective about them for the first years. In that case 1641 would mark the time when the population had grown so much that there were excess beasts to hunt. (Not that I think Argrath was ecologically conscious, but having lived in Prax, among almos-vanished herd beasts (like the war-zebras), he might have got the basic idea...)
More problematic to me is the fact that M.Blue cites 1632 for the year when Argrath presented himself to Queen Leika - or was this the year when he had fulfilled the promise to return the Karandoli clan from the Other Side made in 1627 after his victory at Sword Hill?
>So although it
>seems to me that Argrath had numerous clashes with the Telmori
>and the Saga records one particularly noteworthy battle but puts
>it in the place of another battle with the Telmori.
There is another "evidence" that the Telmori may have survived - they are part of the Sartar _Free Army_, i.e. the volunteers following Argrath, in DP boardgame. While this _may_ be outdated source material, I doubt that.
My solution for this dilemma is that Argrath made Enostar a lieutenant, and had him keep an eye on his Praxian and Pol Joni allies while he himself negotiated with the Grazers (not a diplomatic mission I would take Praxians to). They may have camped in the Better Place, right east of Telmori territory.
The text common to both northern and southern Argrath Saga (therefore likely
that of the Ur-Argrath Saga) goes:
: the werewolf folk turned against Argrath, plundering the herds of the
: folk to make Argrath's men stay at home.
Now which folk of Argrath's would have relied most strongly on their herds? His Praxian and Pol Joni allies. Note that the Monster Army can (and IMO should) be identified with a chaos eruption from Snake Pipe Hollow rather than with the Telmori tribe, and Minaryth Blue relates such an event in "Fight Broos at Tink" for 1635. IMO this part of the Saga merges several battles into one, and the paragraph "Nor was Argrath without help ..." should have been in square brackets as well.
The Telmori theme is continued only on the bottom of that page:
: King Argrath would not tolerate the wolfmen's attacks. He worked with all : the priests and holy men who could do it, and they sniffed out their foes : in the night and through dreams.
Now this does sound like Argrath of Pavis, Enostar Bad-dreams, doesn't it?
: They guided their men into battle, and sought the wolves through the most : impossible lands.
: The fight against the wolfmen was arduous, and many good people died. But : in the end Argrath was victorious. Afterwards, the tribe of the wolf people : was dispersed, and only bands of them were found anyplace, and then were : hunted down.
Even the saga has Telmori survivors. Since all of this occurred while Kallyr still ruled as Prince of Sartar, and therefore had the same loyalty of Telmori Temertain had had, the consequences of this counter-raid may be massively overstated, and the Telmori might have regained the lands granted to them by Sartar when Argrath became Prince in 1631. In the meantime, it is well possible that they once again had become game for Telmori-haters.
During the later part of his reign, IMO Argrath had (among others) a contingent of Telmori bodyguards.
Then there is also a "Gloranthan Secret" involved which I won't spill here in public. May the originators or other keepers do so (although they are all off to the con by now...)
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