> I believe "officiallly" the God Learners were not Illuminates. =
> Unofficially, I would think that some of them would most certainly
> have learned about illumination and its advantages and acheived it.
Illumination was *the* great philosophical and theological wrangle of early Second Age Malkionism, the context in which the God Learners founded the Middle Sea Empire. The war against the Dark Empire saw Jrusteli Crusaders and their Seshnegi allies cutting into the heart of Arkat's Dark Empire. They beyond doubt *knew* that Illumination existed.
However, my gut feeling is that Illumination and God Learning were found to be incompatible world-views. An Illuminated God Learner couldn't function as a God Learner; an Illuminate couldn't come to learn and use the God Learner "secret" (be this RuneQuest sight or whatever). This is partly because (roolz speak time) Illumination is so undefined in RQ Roolz terms... it doesn't "fit" with the GLs' view of a precise, mechanistic, designed world.
Greg has said at times that "the" GLs or "some" GLs were Illuminates, but I'd happily go against this.
> Keep in mind that Sandy has said the God Learners changed something
> about Glorantha and destroyed their "secret". Surviving GL's would
> have to find new ways to manipulate the universe. =
I agree with the sentiment, but it should be expressed differently:
IMO, the God Learners discovered a fundamental "secret" of Glorantha. and abused it. This activity annoyed Glorantha, which destroyed them and changed itself, such that their "secret" was no longer true. If there were such a thing as a surviving God Learner, much of its lore would be obsolete, but it would still be highly dangerous.
> Would there be a Red Goddess if there had been no God Learners?
Yes. Life will find a way. Sedenya *is*, Rufelza *is*.
> Would there be a Red Goddess if there had been no Gbaji?
No. If Gbaji had not attacked Nysalor's Empire, then Rashorana would have had no need to "return" centuries later, after the Nathan period of Second Age dualism, in the form of Rufelza.
Nysalor was the first manifestation of Rashorana in the physical world. Rufelza is the second. Gbaji is not Nysalor. Without Gbaji, Nysalor's mission would have been a success, and the New Cosmos would have been born a millennium ago.
Curse you, Gbaji! Curse your lying ways, your treachery, your betrayal! Curse you for slaying, dismembering and besmirching the memory of our glorious Lord Nysalor! Curse you for what you did to Dorastor, Land of Beauty! The Goddess (bless her!) found you out, and bound you in chains of adamant, liberating her Nysalor to bring his blessings to the world. Now you must writhe impotently and watch as they spread beauty, truth and light across the face of Glorantha. A hundred deaths, a thousand agonies, a million curses be upon you, every day for evermore!
> The best source on this stuff [Rufelza] is the Entekosiad, though =
> even it doesn't exactly have reams on the subject.
Should be some good new sources out this weekend: Greg has knocked up a rather nifty pamphlet of fundamental Lunar beliefs (Saurintology was the dry run for this), and there will be more in the Glamour book we've created to accompany "Life of Moonson".
"Rufelza" means "Red Goddess" - there is no distinction between the two. Rufelza is held to be the modern incarnation of Sedenya, the primal Lunar Goddess. All the earlier goddesses (Verithurusa, Lesilla, Gerra, Rashorana, Orogeria and Natha) as well as the prospective She Who Comes (Zaytenera, who may be here already, or may always have been here) are incarnations of Sedenya. But as Sedenya today is Rufelza, they're all her too.
Rufelza is the Red Goddess. The Red Goddess is Rufelza. The terms are completely interchangeable. The fact that her proper name sounds like a Thomas Hardy bit-part ("Trouble up t'mill, Ruth-Elsa!") is what leads me to call her "the Red Goddess" so often; that and my stick-in-the-mud habits (e.g. Urox, Takenegi...). If Greg decided that in New Pelorian, the words "Seven Mothers" sounded like "Tell-i-Tub'eez", I wouldn't immediately rush out to tippex over my copy of GoG...
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Nick
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End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #68
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