-----Original Message----- From: owner-glorantha-digest_at_chaosium.com [SMTP:owner-glorantha-digest_at_chaosium.com] Sent: Saturday, November 22, 1997 2:38 PM To: glorantha-digest_at_chaosium.com Subject: The Glorantha Digest V5 #235 The Glorantha Digest Saturday, November 22 1997 Volume 05: Number 235
TABLE OF CONTENTS
nillo_at_tao.agoron.com Law and Chaos:Disputing Bill Thompson allen wallace Re: The Glorantha Digest V5 #234 Mmohrfield_at_aol.com Re: Vormain Scott Haney The nature of Chaos...and maybe afew Gods
RULES OF THE ROAD
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 03:33:13 -0500 From: <nillo_at_tao.agoron.com> Subject: Law and Chaos:Disputing Bill Thompsondestroyed.
> Sorry, Bill, I have to dispute you on a few points.
>
> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:02:48 -0800 (PST)
> From: Bill Thompson <interlit_at_pacificcoast.net>
> Subject: Chaos and Law
>
> Simon Hibbs said;
>
> >I'm afraid you realy don't seem to be clarifying anything,
just adding to
> >the profusion of confused terminology.
>
> Sorry Simon, If you are going to deal with Chaos there are
certain terms
> that have to be in your lexicon. They are all interwoven(as
most
> relationships are) and to ignore one is to lose track of the
pattern. Sandy
> spoke of Disorder back in V.1 when he stated that the God
learners knew the
> difference between Disorder and Chaos.
>
> >Equlay, magic cannot exist in contact with pure chaos. It is
disrupted,
> >.absorbed and disintegrated.
>
> If we accept that Chaos is the raw material of creation then
it follows
> that all of creation comes out of Chaos. Additionally most
creation myths
> have the elder Gods coming out of Chaos as well. If the Gods
created
> Glorantha then they used Chaos and manipulated it in some
fashion.
> Obviously then magic can interact with Chaos without being
A pertinent question is here... what is Magic? Magic, as defined by it's
Gloranthanrunic definition, is communication between the otherworld and the mundane
plane. Chaos, according to works such as Cults of Terror/Lords of Terror and others, "Destroys all possibiltiies of individuality and unity." Chaos, for Gloranthans, is literally the death of the world (and for the follower of Draconic Mysteries, or the Illuminant, it's birth as well.) Any magic that is Chaotic or Chaotically aspected can only serve the forms and purposes of Chaos, which is the destruction of existence and transformation of it into non-existence... Chaos magic (The bringing forth of Chaos from the otherworld into the mundane Gloranthan Reality) can only bring forth that end, ultimately. Tap in it's various forms is the best example, but any Chaos Rune Spell meets that end.followers.
> >The physical matter of Glorantha was orriginaly created from
chaos, but it
> >was changed fundamentaly by that process - it isn't chaos
anymore and
> >confusing chaos with magic is unhelpfull.
>
> I am not saying that magic is chaos. Rather that Magic is the
tool that is
> used to allow Chaos to interact with the world. The effect of
chaos is
> change, creativity, destruction... sounds like general
headings for most
> spells doesn't it.
>
> In addition we find that some of the Gods themselves carry the
Chaos rune;
> Ragnaglar and Seseine as examples.
>
These are Chaos Gods, remember. Seseine and Ragnaglar are partially outsideof Creation, as most Chaos gods are.
> >. Magic cannot exist in the presence of that
> >which cannot be connected to, bound with or influenced.
>
> If this were the case then these Gods would not exist and the
chaos rune
> could not be tied to anything. Bagog, Krjalk and most of the
"Terror" cults
> would wonder why all their Divine Magic has dried up and all
of there
> heroes who have attained Rune affinity would be unable to work
magic..
>
Remember, in RQ2, Magic is a condition rune, one of the rare few of it'stype (the only other condition runes are Infinity and Mastery.) Magic, as a Rune, is more of a modifier than anything else, implying mundane world/ otherworld interacion. In the case of the Chaos Gods, think of the the Magic rune as the channel through which their powers flow into the mundane world (the same as how the runic powers of other Gods function.) While not all deities possess the Magic Rune as one of their primary attributes (the only ones that I know of are Glorantha, mother of the Cosmos, and the Invisible God... Who I feel are one and the same being! I'll save that for a later post,. though), all deities use the Magic rune as a function of being a god and interacting with the world of Time and their mortal
> So to the original question is law the antithesis of Chaos.
> No. in fact the Law rune may supecede chaos. If Chaos can be
acted upon
> and manipulated then there must be some causal force which
says how this
> may be done. Peter metcalf says that the Law rune is simply
the laws of the
> universe.
> I think that we might look at stasis as being the antithesis
of chaos.
> Where Chaos represents change and diversity, Stasis represents
stability
> and order.
This is one of my sore points... Chaos, in Glorantha, is not MoorcockChaos, as
delineated in his Stormbringer novels. Chaos is NOT change and diversity... It's primal infinity and void, from which all creation comes, and which contains infinite possibilities. Change, in Glorantha, is a function of the Change/Mobility rune, which represents changes in ideas, locations, cultures, opinions and the world which is represented by cults such as Orlanth, Issaries and the like. Change represents not only travel (Mastakos), but also social mobility, change and development in ideas, and changes in one's life that make sense and are related to the context of one's own surroundings. Chaos, on the other hand, is an infinity that is unhindered by logic. This can explain the hatred many Chaos creatures have for the world... Glorantha's laws force them into weak, pitiful, finite manifestations, bound by the laws of Time. If Time and the world were destroyed by Chaos, then Chaos creatures woud become *all things*. But, in becoming infinity, they'd effectively become nothing. To Lawful creatures, this is the Soul Death, while to Chaotics, it's the ultimate liberation and transcendence to Godhead. Again, only the Draconics, Illuminants and Lunars understand both sides of this conundrum.Change is!
> So try this on for size. The stasis Rune is Mostali in origin.
Mostali as
> the first born have the strongest memories of Chaos and ally
themselves
> with its antithesis, Stasis.
Actually, the Mostali were created by the World Machine, by a combinationof the Stasis, Earth and Man runes, to service the world machine. The 'Elder' races aren't actually older than mankind, but are called Elder because their histories and cultures have unbroken continuity before the darkness, while human kingdoms and cultures have risen, fallen and risen in new forms. At least the Uz, Dragonewts and Aldryami are as old as the Mostali, and have memories just as strong of Chaos. Another point - Runically, at least according to the god learners, the opposite Power to Stasis is not Chaos, but Mobility/Change.
> Mostali take truestone which was created by Mostal to hold
creation
> together(the spike). It does this because trustone is rich
with Stasis and
> resists the effect of Chaos.
>
Krarsht disproves this. Krarsht uses Stasis to make the world malfunction,through corruption and greed, just as much as Pocharngo uses Change/Mobility to do the same thing. Stasis is no more resistant to Chaos than
> Now, the Mostali take this truestone which already has pretty
heavy
> cultural significance and they place there strongest magics
upon it,
> reforging it and making it purer. The end result is Admantium
which is
> focused Stasis.
>
> Magic will not work on the Admantium because magic invokes
(indirectly) the
> power of chaos and in this case the Admantium is a much
stronger because it
> has a direct link to (may in fact be a part of..) the Stasis
Rune.
>
> Similarily magic worked in the vincinity of Admantium will be
affected as
> though the very world around them is resisting the results of
the spell
>
> Some may argue that motion and stasis are opposites but
remember that the
> paired runes are a God learner construct and should be
suspect...
> I think that Motion and stasis merely dislike each other in a
rather vague
> unfocused way. Stasis and Chaos on the other hand are like
matter and
> anti-matter if you bring them together in their pure form they
both cease
> to exist. During the Great Darkness "Life met anti-life and
everything
> imploded into nothingness"
>
The published sources disagree with you. Even non-God Learner sourcesgeneraly agree
that Chaos is not 'Anti-Stasis', but 'Anti-Life', life representing
the whole of the Cosmos as opposed to the runic power. Sometimes Greg uses the
term Life to represent existence, and all the Runic powers of the world, and
'Anti-Life' (represented by Kajaboor world-eater) to represent Chaos, the
howling void which desires to consume the world.
> Finally.
>
> >Magic is what makes Glorantha what it is. Everything in
Glorantha that
> >isn't either pure Chaos, or pure Law, is magical.
>
> Say Rather:
> Everything which isn't pure Chaos or Pure Stasis is magical.
Because Magic
> is the vessel used by Law to express how Chaos and Magic may
be combined.
> Everything in Glorantha is an orderly expression of Chaos.
People start as
> babies and get old. This is Change, but a very
> smooth and orderly form thereof. Trees change with the
seasons, so do the
> woodfolk. Everwhere in Glorantha there is the smooth orderly
expression of
> controlled Chaos.
I agree 100% here, except in your use of the term Stasis. I'd substitute 'Law'
or'Life'. Very Illuminated!
> During the Great Darkness, raw uncontrolled Chaos came into
Glorantha.
> Through the vessel Wakboth it entered the world unchecked by
Law.The Life
> of Glorantha allied themselves with Law to regain control of
Chaos and
> eject it from Glorantha. Some among those who fought were
better able to
> express Law and were more effective in the Battle. Eater of
Chaos the Troll
> was able to defeat chaos by consuming it and making it subject
to the most
> powerful Law of Uz, Digestion. Once Chaos has been made
subject to Law
> again then Chaos becomes controllable.
>
> The end result of the war. law wins and Chaos is controlled.
But Chaos has
> strengthened its position. How do we know this? Because people
age faster,
> seasons turn faster...
I disagree. Change is good. But then, I'm strongly Orlanthi!
> .
>
> Faster change = stronger Chaos.
>
Nopers, faster Change=Stronger Law, Life! Witness Yelm's stagnant rule,and the need for
Orlanth's forcing him to change and acknowledge his own error. Witness Orlanth's change through the acknowledgement of his own (Orlanth's) crime! While still performing a service to the world, and saving it from stagant disintegration (perhaps a slow death and eventual invasion from Chaos later, as opposed to the disastrous war he instigated), he also committed a heinous crime he had to admit to, and make recompense for. Change supports law, Stasis/Stagnation brings forth Chaos, by all going forth into the unchanging, static, howling void of unbeing. The Red Goddess brought forth change, forcing the world to deal with her, causing it pain, but bringing forth knowledge and new insights, forcing it to become wiser. She made Orlanth change, via his servant Argrath, by calling forth old Dragon powers and insights similar to those offered by the Red Goddess, yet fundamentally different. As the unchanging GodTime and the shifting void of Chaos interact, Life and Timeare made.
> Bill Thompson.
Paraphrasing and summing up...
Bill, you seem to have a more Moorcockian ideal of Law, in Glorantha, meaning
Unchange, or Stasis. In this, I disagree with you. I personally feel that discerning
the difference between Law and Chaos vis a vis Change/Mobility and Stasis is a
toughie for most Gloranthan fans. However, here are my thoughts.
Law is the world, literally, and is the synthesis of it's component powers. Law is
Sanity, the compreghensible world of Glorantha, and is best described by
Logical Sorcery in this sense. In this way, the insights of the God Learners made
sense, as they saw the world as a series of Elements, Powers, Conditions and
Forms which interacted and made up the world we know (Glorantha) today.
Law differs from Stasis in two ways... One, it includes provision for orderly
Change (the change of seasons, movement from one local to another, ageing,
even changes in cultures and philosophy, represented by history.) Stasis, on the
other hand, represents unchanging principles in the world which remain constant,
such as the solidity of Stone, mathematics, and laws which are used to govern men.
Secondly, Law is a form rune, like Chaos is, while Stasis is one of the powers.
Law is also the Immortal world of the GodTime. By definition, the GodTime
and the beings within it can not change, as they form the platonic foundation of
the world. If you muck around with the GodTime, you can destroy the universe.
This, IMO, is the ultimate reason why Glorantha as a world destroyed the God
Learners. In their foolish manipulations of Myth they almost destroyed the world,
being just as dangerous as Gbaji was to the world within Time. In their own way,
the GL's were just as much agents of Chaos as the armies of Wakboth were
during the GodTime.
As for the GL's being suspect... Has any Gloranthan culture come up with a better
system that can be applied world wide? Despite the abuses of the God Learners,
their runic system and philosophies are now the Lingua Franca for Gloranthan mystics
and magicians. One can admire and use Latin while hating the Roman Empire. :)
The GL's were empirical scientists, and despite whatever else you may feel about them
they were experts at observing phenomena impartially... Thus, their insights into other
cultures aren't necessarily always suspect (indeed, their powers could not have been
achieved if they were totally overwhelmed by their biases.)Only in their later period
did they lose respect for the world and almost destroy it. In Lord of Terror, in a section on the Dragon Creation Myth, Chaos is defined as being everything that is not Law. Chaos is the womb and grave of creation for Glorantha, the beginning and end of everything. To make it a mere opposite of Stasis robs Chaos in Glorantha of it's grandeur, glory and horror. Chaos is insanity, the insanity that makes creation possible and can destroy the world. Draconics and Illuminates, especially Lunars, understand this, and attempt to harness this Glorious aspect of Chaos. Existence, or Time, requires Chaos just as much as the Law of GodTime, and the Spider Arachne Solara understood this as the Compromise was forged (all you non-compromise believers, insert your myths here. ;) Existence/Time is a buffer between the howling void of Chaos and the Immortal Law of GodTime. It's the only way the GodTime can exist, as it would be destroyed (indeed, was, in the I fought/ We Won, before being created anew by the mortal creatures of the world) by direct exposure to the void. IMO, Interactions of any kind, but especially between Chaos, Time, and GodTime are what makes magic possible inGlorantha.
Well, it's long and spammy, but I hoped I was able to make my ideas clear.
Chris Bell mailto:remster_at_interport.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 06:57:12 -0800 (PST) From: allen wallace <alwallac_at_linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us> Subject: Re: The Glorantha Digest V5 #234 On the taboos on goats and dogs for the orlanthi. I suspect the dogs are banned on two counts, attachment to Telmor, ( the excellent Voriof Cult aside) and the dogs 'natural antipathy' to the alynx. The goats are easier, in several sources there are chaos-goat ties, in names if not in the world. A lot of people tie Broo and Ragnaglar to goats as well, don't know why on the second unless its a lust/lechery/sexual thing. Goats also have that look that causes people in the RW to ascribe them similar features. It doesn't have to be any more than that in a symbol sensitive culture. One other thing, on an old thread, Pilots have in RW been a very prestige position. You aren't talking a glorified helmsman, this is the main who could handle a ship well enough to be trusted with the safety of both ship and docks. The pilot had absolute command while on board. I suspect in the advancement version of Hrestolism, the pilot is what the Captain advances to. Besides the pilot has a home/family/political life that isn't all interuptions. Allen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:53:53 -0500 (EST) From: <Mmohrfield_at_aol.com> Subject: Re: Vormain Tadaaki Kakegawa writes <<P.S. If you have a chance, please go to see Anime-Movie "Mononoke Princess" directed by Mr. Miyazaki. That is my image on Vormain.etc
>>
Is that Hayao Miyazaki you're talking about? I haven't seen "Mononoke Princess", but I think that the Sea of Corruption from "Nausicaa" could serve as an excellent model for Sporewood in Dagori Inkarth. It's even got the giant insects! Mark Mohrfield ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 14:01:44 CDT From: scotty_at_olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us (Scott Haney) Subject: The nature of Chaos...and maybe a few Gods & From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_toppoint.de> & Subject: The Nature of Chaos & & Chaos has come from the Primal Void _outside of the Universe_, from which & the Universe has come. The Primal Void is neither destructive nor & creative, it simply is outside of everything. In other words: the Primal & Void is Right where it is. & [lots of good stuff snipped.] Kudos to Joerg for a spit-spot explanation of the difference between Chaos and the Void. (Of course, the typical Gloranthan would be oblivious to the difference.) Not all that came to Glorantha from the Void is necessarily Chaotic, though. In the Void, creation and destruction constantly occur. Some things last mere moments (if "moment" can be defined there); others last a long time. Still others are able to alter their surroundings in the Void and sustain themselves. Two of the most notable to Gloranthans are Krarsht (considered Chaotic) and Arachne Solara (not Chaotic). Neither of these were born of Glorantha. In fact, one can categorize the gods of Glorantha somewhat by source or origin. (Note: I don't feel that a god can be fully or even mostly pigeonholed this way...I tend to see them as part of a continuum. I should probably wash my mouth out with soap for sounding like a God Learner. :) Category Examples -------- -------- Gods born outside of Glorantha Arachne Solara, Krarsht Gods born within Glorantha Orlanth, Somash, Yelm,
Gods born within Glorantha, Tien, Thed, Malia, Krjalk
but changed horribly by the most Chaos gods incursion of Chaos or Void Gods formed from the Wakboth, Pocharngo incursion itself I think this needs a bit of work. For example, I don't know where I'd put Nysalor. I've been toying with the idea of having him be one of the few category 4 gods who are not Chaotic. (The Arkati are now on their way to my house...) And I think there might be another god in category 1. At any rate, your Glorantha may vary. Scott, Baron von Moosehsunchen (recently inspired so much by the Moose Turd Pie story that I'm thinking of Gloranthafying it and posting it to the list.) Scott Haney scotty_at_olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us "To err is human, to forgive, beyond the scope of the OperatingSystem"
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