Nothing New in the West?

From: Joerg Baumgartner <>
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 23:10 MET

Peter Metcalfe and I approach pointlessness in our debate once again...

Hrelar Amali
Peter claims I claim
>[that the Dangan Confederacy collapsed around 160 ST which allowed
>the Seshnegi to conquer it afterwards and set up the temples to Orlanth
>and Magasta (cf JC) there. I counter-claim that they would have done so
>in the days of the Serpent Kings for no such conquest in mentioned in the
>BCG and post-Serpent King Seshnela was anti-pagan.]

I guess there can be no Right or Wrong with the current published data. IMO Ralios has no history of continuous large political bodies except the God Learner Empire. The next best thing they had was the Kingdom of Jorstland mentioned in Troll Pak.

I did not mention the Seshnegi temples in Hrelar Amali in my History of Ralios summary for Rise of Ralios
( because of the uncertainty of these events, and because this facet was not decisive for the aspects of Ralian history treated in RoR.

>>In that case, I guess the claim in the Jonstown Compendium in RQ Companion
>>is insubstantial, and there have been no Brithos-descended Seshnegi erecting
>>temples in Hrelar Amali.

>It says no such thing. The BCG does not give the history of the
>Dangan Confederacy _before_ its contact by the World Council in 130
>ST. Which is _when_ I think the incident took place.

Well, I don't. The Pendali nations between the Tanier Valley and the Malkioni lands on the western shore of the peninsula had been hostile throughout their (recorded, but unpublished) history.

>[I posted three counter-examples. All of these, Joerg acknowledges
>but then makes some trivial objection as to why they don't apply in
>the case of the Serpent Kings while missing the point that his trite
>amphorism has been exploded.]

Peter's proposal that the Malkioni Seshnegi fought a two front war against the eastern Pendali by conquering Hrelar Amali from the Utoni still seems ludicrous to me. The Seshnegi did not have the means to launch such an expedition during the first century. That's like saying Rome fought the Celts before arranging its survival against the Sabines.

I also doubt that the Seshnegi sent missionaries to Hrelar Amali, although a diplomatic mission rather than a show of force seems to be the easiest way to establish temples there.

>>The Serpent Kings did no such thing. They fought their wars pretty
>>straightforward across the (quite long) direct borders to their enemies.

>How do you know?

Read it.

>>>Indeed some states may have been allied with the Seshnegi against the

>Oops. Galalini is meant here - some states of the 'Basmoli' may have
>allied with the Seshnegi against the Galalini. I've put Basmoli in
>quotes because after the marriage of King Froalar to Seshna, I think
>the Seshnegi Malkioni became the leading state in Seshnela. Its customs
>would have been aped by the other states and the recorded wars are IMO
>attempts by the Serpent Kings to accumulate power within the Royal
>House, much like King Guilmarn does today.

That's not exactly how I see 1st century Seshnegi history, but I can live with this position better than with savage Hsunchen Basmoli in Seshnela. Yes, the Pendali adopted different ways after their ancestral deity Ifftala had been slain by Hrestol, and their monopoly on support by the land goddess had been broken. The various kingdoms turned to different means to make up for this power loss - one kingdom turned to Solar worship, including all the "elemental weapons". One mighty trio of Pendali sorcerers once summoned Aerlit against the Seshnegi.

>>Relations never got friendly enough that armed forces would have been
>>allowed to pass through peacefully...

>>To (ab)use and adapt your examples from above, did the Romans strike through
>>Carthaginan/Phoenician-held Gibraltar to the Ivory Coast? Did the Athenians
>>move their fleet overland through the Peloponnes to Sicily?

>No, but the Crusaders have moved armies through Hungary and the
>Byzantium Empire despite less-than-enthusiastic smiles on the faces
>of the Hungarians and the Byzantines.

Yes. Those weren't kingdoms directly at war with France (or Byzantium with Germany), though, and more importantly they did not have the manpower to overcome the superior army which could have destroyed their own army if attacked decisively. (The Byzantines used guile and the Turks to get even with the Crusaders...)

The few instances when a large army marched through hostile country to fight another country the army rarely arrived unscathed. The Crusades are the only incident I recall where such an expedition managed to establish a bridgehead for long enough to receive reinforcements.

>Erm, a) so are the Silver Empire whom you presume put the shrines
>up there

Not quite. The date 150 ST for the end of the Serpent Kings is not exact IMO, and the THW was coming to power only c.200 ST. This makes some time around 180 ST for a Seshnegi presence in Hrelar Amali possible - after all, they had had to get even with Dan's heirs for Dan's conquests of their (recently conquered) lands east of the peninsula proper.

The Dari Alliance
>>>You are imposing Orlanthi cultural artifacts on the Dari who were
>>>not Orlanthi but Galalinae at the time.

>>"At the Time" reads after about 200 years of cultural exchange with the
>>Theyalans, and after learning some magic from the Council (and later the

>But they were a seperate state, learned from the Malkioni and other
>people as well as the Theyalans and reckoned by most people to be
>completely distinct from the Theyalans.

They were a separate state. So was the Dara Happan Empire.

They weren't really completely distinct from the Theyalans - nor were the other beast totem Orlanthi of East Ralios.

: 'Nonetheless, it is thought that Nysalor taught:


: *The Ralians that thought is not the only reality; that their
: Laws were not Eternal Truths; and that instinct was neither
: good or evil.'
: Fortunate Succession p78.

Which Ralians? The Kivitti and Vustrians, the Bemuri and other East Ralians, or the Korioni and Utoni? What about the Fornoari? TFS is a Dara Happan document and knows about as much about Ralian affairs as KoS.

Or as speaking of the Kingdom of Halikiv for Ralios because the Kethaelan sages who recorded the Alakoring myth in Wyrm's Footprints knew Ralios to have been ruled by troll allies of the Only Old One or the God Learners, and Alakoring certainly was not one of the latter...

>>IMO the "Galaninae" of Safelster kept about as much of their
>>original ancestor worship/Hykimi religion as the Orlanthi keep Daka Fal
>>shamanism - it persists, and helps define their culture, but the Theyalan
>>religion is stronger in forming their lives.

>The people of Galin are Malkioni first and not Theyalan. To them,
>the Theyalans are grubby little savages who live in the wop-wops
>over in the east.

And the Dara Happans are pompous twits without any real culture living in false solar splendour beyond the mountains. What, they've been conquered by the Camelians? Serves 'em right.

I doubt that the people of Galin realize how much of their culture is God Learner, and how much is Theyalan (2nd Council) influenced. IMO most of Ralian henotheism has become a blend of Malkioni and Theyalan religion, with the Old Beast religion a defeated third. I included a stronger beast influence in the dominant churches of Galin and Helby than elsewhere in Safelster for more diversity in RoR. Like the rural Dara Happans, the Dari Confederacy managed to maintain their culture's roots besides the pervading influence of the Theyalans to their cults. IMO it was the wide spread of the Theyalan techniques of theist worship which enabled the God Learners to apply their RuneQuest Sight and lable all of Genertela outside of the Malkioni sphere or the mystical East theists, users of Divine Magic.

>Their major cultural traditions are derived
>from the Malkioni, Arkat and their ancient horse-riding traditions.

The ancient horse riding traditions are preserved about as much in urban Galin as the bison-riding traditions are preserved by the Assiday in Darleep in Dara Happa.

>They have never been conquered by the Orlanthi. So why should they
>be overly influenced by Theyalan Ideals?

Neither have the Bemuri or other East Ralian peoples. Why should they? Why should the Vustri have adopted the Theyalan message when contacted around 150 ST?

>The Dari Alliance was a seperate state from the Empire of Light. So
>why would Maklaman need to make Humath semi-seperate from Lokaymadon's
>Cult? Secondly the Ralians had storm gods long before they came into
>contact with the World Council.

And the Vustrians and Bemuri had nothing better to do than to integrate their storm believes with the Theyalan Storm Brothers.

The Korioni inhabited the lands north of Lake Felster, including the Upper Tanier valley and the hills and plains towards the Doskior. Naskorion (East Korion?) expended later into Vustrian and Bemuri territory, both as part of the Jrusteli Empire, of Jorstland, and afterwards.

This makes the Korioni homelands the part of Safelster where Arkat summoned support from the rural population, and where he found natural allies against Telmoria and Vesmonstran.

It seems that Derigonus Pistol commanded a strong contingent of Telmori warriors, or why was Wolfblood in Daran (a country named after Dari) mortared with the blood of slain wolves?

>Interesting. Methods for impeachment of an unruly king or chief
>are known throughout glorantha and the real world.

None of these require a separating from subject kin on behalf of the king.

Face it: Maklamann became an ally of Arkat, and so did many neighbours of Telmoria and Vesmonstran, who happen to live in Korioni lands. Doesn't this sound like Maklamann, king of the Korioni, and a host of Korioni joined Arkat's cause despite the resistance of a few cities, and the priesthood Maklamann separated himself from?

Maklamann seems to have intended to make the Dari lands more independent from the 2nd Council / Bright Empire, and seeing the lack of Seshnegi support Arkat had he seems to have seen his chance for a land of Ralios independent from the Council.

>>The situation is different when it comes to dealing with an inter-tribally
>>connected priesthood exerting an active influence even over one's sworn
>>followers. Especially when this priesthood is allied to a powerful
>>organisation like the Bright Empire.

>The whole state was allied to the Empire of Light. This seperate
>'priesthood' is your invention following an parallel in Orlanthi
>culture which I believe is unnecessary as the Galalinae are not
>and never have been Orlanthi.

Neither are / have been the people of Worian in Carmania?

(BTW, Nick, nice one with the begun elemental sequence in footnote 2 of your Carmanian Society
( Invisible Orlanth? A Lunar prophet?)

>>>and they hate hate *hate* Arkat the last time I heard.

>>Yes. Now, let's have a look at the sources. CoT tells us that "Many tribes
>>of heathens followed too, despite their dislike of Malkioni monotheism."

>But it applies to the people of Vustria, not East Ralios.

Vustria, and Korion. I did not want to imply that East Ralians (Bemuri-descended Orlanthi) followed, or fought for, Arkat. I wonder how they felt about Harmast bringing back Arkat from Hell...

>Because the
>very _next_ sentence goes: 'One by one the strongholds fell until
>the forces were concentrated in the eastern part of Ralios, especially
>the City of Wolves and the fortress of Kartolin'.

The City of Wolves is not exactly in the eastern part of Ralios. To be more exact, Telmoria is in northern Ralios, below the High Llama Pass, and that's where their city would have been. Upper Tanier Valley.

>>Dorastor tells us that the city defenses held briefly, while the rural
>>population and the hill-people rose "in rebellion". Cities = centres
>>controlled by the priesthood...

>Cities = centres controlled by the priesthood is your interpolation
>and unjustified IMO. Modern Sartarite Cities are controlled by Kings
>and chiefs and not Priests for example.

Modern Sartarite cities are hardly representative for anything except King Sartar's policy to forcefully unite separate small Alakoringite tribes in the Quivini hills by providing Heortland-style fortifications for them to share. The kings are Alakoringites, i.e. they have mastered the rule of the priesthood through Alakoring's rites and magic. Prior to Alakoring's magic of Orlanth Rex, the Orlanthi were ruled by the priesthood rather than the kings, courtesy of both Lokamayadon _and_ Harmast. This led to the EWF...

>Whatever the reasons for
>the revolt of the countryside, I do not believe it to be a case of
>cookie cutter 'priesthood bad, runelords good'.

Rather: "How dare those arrogant urbanites defy noble King Maklamann!"

>Me>>There is no mention of Maklamann having an army.

>>There is a mention of many people, especially those living along the upper
>>Tanier River, flocking to Arkat's banner, even despite their dislike.

>Upper Tanier River? Where's this from?

Applied geography. Arkat fought the Telmori, who lived next to the Korioni of the Upper Tanier River valley. "Especially from" is my emphasis, I admit, but look at the maps (Genertela Book p.72f)

End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #424

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