If you follow the conception of the gods sitting in the sky on thrones looking down on mortals a-la Clash of the Titans, this is where we part company. I just don't see how this fits. Heroquests don't happen within time. When you heroquest you go outside yourself and experience the divine world, or at least approach it.
I can't imagine a god deciding spontaneously to change it's heroquests, as a pre-emptive strategy as to how they want to be worshiped. This seems to be what you're sugesting.
I'm not saying that how a god is pecieved and worshiped within time can't changed. However, how can you imply that a given heroquest tells us nothing about the wishes and nature of a god because thay can change spontaneoustly (despite gods not having free will!), and on the other hand say that heroquests establish the idealised behaviour and nature of the god. (to paraphrase). I'm hopelessly confused.
>Outside Time, but bound by Time, the Gods may have
>firm opinions on how they're worshipped, perceived and served within
>Time.
How can those opinions change, if the gods don't have free will?
>....It may even be enacted against
>Humakt's wishes, as expressed to His representatives.
Argh! How many times do I have to say it. Humakt has no free will.
>They cannot enact their will directly, no: that would violate the
>constraints of Time. ("Whoopee!" says Wakboth....) But, through their
>worshippers, they can and would cause their will be be enacted, and
>there are many ways a God can express a wish to a Holy person.
Right, here's the nub. The gods behaviour, wishes and rsponses are defined through ritual and heroquest. Their will is a function of what they are and they _can't_ change that. You seem to be confusing freedom of action with free will. the gods do have freedom of action within the bounds of their established behaviour and ritual, but they have no way to change that behaviour or their nature - nor any way to express such a wish. That would be an act (and an expression) of free will.
>MGF point one: observe the Enemy. Interrogate any converts to your
own
>cult. Infiltrate other cults.....
er I don't see what MGF has to do with it, but ok. I didn't say it was impossible. I was just saying it's pretty dangerous.
>...It's an educational experience, literally so, and
>you'd better believe the IOite is documenting everything.
And nobody else minds the Yelmalion selling out cult secrets to foreigners?
>> I can see what you're getting at, but I'm afraid I think you're being
a
>> bit naive.
>I'm not going to get drawn into name-calling.
That wasn't the intention, but you gave the impression that it was a realy neat, easy thing to do, which seemed a naive point of view. I see now that isn't so.
>But I _do_ love the idea of the haughty Humakti going to their HQs
>wearing tutus and trying to ignore the titters of the commoners they
>pass.
Well yes, but if a bunch of YTs can choose to weat tutus while doing the quest, then a bunch of Humakti can choose to not wear them. It's the YTs who'd get to look silly, and they've still just strengthened the Humakti. They'd have to actualy change the difficulty, danger and inevitable outcome of the quest, while doing the quest.
The usual way to do this is to infiltrate it, through taking over the role of enemies in the quest, or heroquest from the point of view of an ally (say Storm Bull) who helps Humakt on the quest, but betray him somehow. Of course this means you've cocked up doing the Storm Bull quest, and it's almost certainly curtains for you.
That's one example of how to do it, but even then it's only a one-off. You haven't changed the quest any more than an ordinary failed attempt does, just one instance of it. To change the quest, you have to have the whole cult backing you up and putting their magical support on the line so it changes for them too. This is what Arkat did.
>Depends on the nature of the change. Something really minor could be
>pulled off by a Hero or a fair bunch of Priests all walking the same
>Path.
It'd only change it for them, just as any normal attempt at a quest does.
>Something the scale of the Lunar magicks would need a SuperHero
>(who would personalize the change and become a Godling), or a fair few
>Heroes, with (High) Priests weighing in too (in which case the change
>would be geographical to the area in which the new ritual was enacted).
They'd need the worshipers of the region backing them up magicaly, otherwise only the local heroquesters would even notice. Remember, you haven't pulled them into the quest, either, because your questing from their perspective.
>In that context, perhaps Abraham _did_ change YHVH's nature ... as far
as >YHVH's followers perceived it.
The Gloranthan parallel to this would be Lokamayadonism, but it failed and I don't believe that's what Abraham did, or how he was percieved.
Simon Hibbs
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