Re: The Glorantha Digest V5 #539

From: RedEye Software Pty Ltd <>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:00:29 +0930

TAKE MY FUCKING NAME OFF THIS At 08:31 PM 4/17/98 GMT, you wrote:
>The Glorantha Digest Friday, April 17 1998 Volume 05 : Number 539
> Re: The Glorantha Digest V5 #538
> Peter Metcalfe Argrath matters
> Peter Metcalfe Cradle matters
> Peter Metcalfe Sergio's questions
> Peter Metcalfe Simon's questions
> Peter Metcalfe Origins of (modern) Hyalorings.
> K. Paul McDonald Gaming and marriage
> Simon Hibbs Eiritha Hills
> Sergio Mascarenhas RW inspirations
> Simon Hibbs Living with magic
> David Dunham Pamaltelan reptilians; Heler
> Jeff Richard Argrath and others
> Jane Williams Kallyr, Argrath(s), Telmori
>1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially
> not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated.
> If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show"
> please do. But don't include the whole message you praise.
>2. Use an appropriate Subject line.
>3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a
> point-by-point basis.
>4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready
> to stand by it.
>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:36:39 +1000
>From: <>
>Subject: Re: The Glorantha Digest V5 #538
>Mr Lord claims that ignorance of procreation is unlikely to be a feature of
>"primitive "
>There is (or was in 1978 anyway) at least one Aboriginal tribe in the
>Kimberlies, Western
>Australia, who were at least in deep denial over the male role in
>procreation. These people
>had a very sophisticated spiritual explantion for the event but absolutly
>forbade any mention,
>among men, of physiological causes. An RQ tribe among whom this belief was
>current could
>,if isolated, forget the role of sex. If the spiritual cause became
>paramount in their belief sex may
>lose its role. Why not? G is founded in its spirituality not its
>physicality. Perhaps the Ulerian
>myths are a plot,dating from Godtime, to control fertility; or perhaps not.
>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:15:29 +1200 (NZST)
>From: (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Argrath matters
>Jane Williams:
>>(There's a thought - how did Jarosar die? "Fell to poison from a
>>friend's hand." Hmmm.)
>He's also alleged to have been killed by Lunar Spirits according
>to the King List in the Genertela Boxed Set which puts him equal
>with Terasarin in the multiple-choice deaths.
>>description of Argrath killing Telmori in the Saga (KoS27) is
>>suspiciously similar to Jomes in 1607 (KoS143).
>How do you get the similarity? Argrath uses magicians and priests to
>hunt down the Telmori whereas Jomes uses Peltasts to fight them.
>>Oh, and did you all spot Argrath in 1627 (having just missed the Flame)
>>asking Leika's permission to import a bunch of his supporters from Pavis
>>to the Colymar lands?
>The event is said to have occured early in his reign (KoS p213) and
>Minaryth Blue confirms this by stating Argrath's election as having
>occured in 1631 and his acceptance into the Colymar in 1632. Thus I
>think the 1627 date implausible.
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:27:09 +1200 (NZST)
>From: (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Cradle matters
>Tony Likhite:
>>Also, where did Pinchining come from in the first place? I vaguely
>>recall something about Urrrggh the Ugly praying to his hoard of gold
>>wheels during a Heroquest with the Temple of the Wooden Sword, and (upon
>>rolling an 01 :) getting a special result. Was the special result the
>>awakening of Pinchining?
>Michael Cule:
>>I think that P. is killed when the Lunars breach the defences. And it is
>>implied that Argrath goes to Hell to bring him back...... How come he is
>>That Tough, I dunno.
>I don't think it was a very tough quest. Notice how sensitive Garrath
>is when he leaves the cradle?
> 'Garrath cannot stay nor lead, for his services are required
> elsewhere. If a player-character wishes to insult Garrath's
> courage or honor by insinuating cowardiance, Garrath will
> promise to remember that slur after he finishes tasks beyond
> the understanding of the foolish. He and his bodyguard will
> depart'
> Pavis: Episodes p45
>Any *real* Orlanthi who has just been called a coward would IMO smite
>the dog who slurred him thus. By claiming that he will remember the
>insult and that what he is doing is 'beyond the understanding of the
>foolish', one is left with the nasty suspicion that the charge has hit
>home. IMO Argrath's HQ to retrieve P. was dead easy while the PCs
>were busy dying the decks of the Cradle with their lifeblood.
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:41:12 +1200 (NZST)
>From: (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Sergio's questions
>Sergio Mascarenhas:
>>1. The mythical and physical origin of the salt mines in Pavis?
>A pile of salt close to the ground. Perhaps a remant of a
>destroyed gorp monster in ages past?
>>2. How do the oasis denizens look like? Are they Theyalan? Of nomad stock?
>Nomad stock.
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:37:15 +1200 (NZST)
>From: (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Simon's questions
>Simon Phipp:
>>Can anyone tell me where the Six Stones are (as used in the Six
>>Stones HeroPlane Ritual)? I know they are somewhere in Sartar but
>>have never managed to find out exactly where.
>In the map of the Sartar Tribes (ToTRM#6 or Questlines I), there
>is a small group of six dashes south of the Boldhome - Swenstown
>route (south of the K in the Kheldron Tribe). Perhaps that's the
>Six Stones?
>>Also, harping back to an old question which still burns me, has
>>anyone any information on Cragspider, apart from the stuff in Dragon
>>Pass and the Trollpak series?
>The only other information is the Broken Council Guidebook which
>states that her surprise appearance at the Unity Battle saved
>the combined host trolls, elves, humans, dwarves and 'newts from
>catalysmic defeat.
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:23:30 +1200 (NZST)
>From: (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Origins of (modern) Hyalorings.
>David Dunham:
>Me>> The horse people are perhaps Grazers who intermixed with their Vendref
>>> and became the ancestors of the Hyaloring Triarchy.
>>Nope, first off, the Grazers would have had to intermarry with the vendref
>>very early (back when they were merely slaves and not an actual people),
>>since the Hyaloring Triarchy is quite old. I find this implausible in later
>>years, but even more so at the start.
>So? The Grazers came into the Valley in 1250 ST and the first Vendref
>entered after 1300 ST. There is no record of the Hyaloring Triachy
>prior to this AFAIK. As for the alleged implausibility of the Vendref/
>Grazer mixing, IMO this is only one tribe of malcontents and not
>representative of grazers in general. There are references to the
>Wanderers who split off from the Grazers in the time of Josadarin the
>Stallion (which is before the Vendref migrated into Dragon Pass).
>>The Hyaloring Triarchy is, as far as I know, descended from Orlanthi who
>>very early adopted horse use (perhaps the Berenethtelli).
>The Berenethtelli live up near Saird and were in the middle of the
>first age wars between the Dara Happans and the Heortlings. For the
>Hyaloring Triarchy to be descended from them would mean that their
>ancestors would have to survive the Gbaji wars (difficult for Orlanthi
>sun worshippers), migrate to Heortland and maintain their ancient
>traditions despite pressure from the EWF and the Only Old One so
>that they can migrate northwards when Dragon Pass becomes habitable.
>This is quite an achievement! They can't be migrants from the north
>when Dragon Pass becomes habitable or else they will be speaking
>Tarshite like the Alda-churi do. Thus I prefer the recent mixture
>on parsimonious grounds which still gives us the descent from Hyalor
>(which any Grazer can claim) as well as good Orlanthi credentials.
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:53:55 -0500
>From: "K. Paul McDonald" <>
>Subject: Gaming and marriage
>On gaming and marriage...
>My experience has been mixed. Most of my friends who game still game
>after getting married - until the kids arrive. Kids, particularly
>pre-schoolers, really cut down on the parents time to do *anything*.
>I have one parent in my gaming group, and he makes about one meeting
>in three. It's just the price you pay.
>I did have one interesting experience that crystalized this for me. I
>was a play-tester on an adventure for some convention or other a few
>years back. Four couples were involved, and two had children. The
>GM's wife had the task of watching everyone's kids. She rented a
>bunch of Disney movies and put the kids in the den, hoping that that
>would keep them occupied. As we *should* have expected, the kids were
>much more interested in the unusual event happening in the dinning
>room, and refused to stay in the den dispite her best efforts. In the
>end we were trying to play with a hord of kids sitting in everyone's
>lap, grabbing for the dice, and asking questions constantly.
>Finally, there have been conflicts between married couples over who
>gets to play and who stays home with the kids. Since the experience
>detailed above, we don't try playing with kids around anymore. If
>only one person in a couple plays, the other resents being stuck with
>the kids once a week, every week. If both play, one is cut out of his
>or her hobby or at least can't play in the same game with their mate.
>In the end, nobody said it was easy having kids! You just have to
>make do...
>K.Paul McDonald
>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:05:43 +0100
>From: Simon Hibbs <>
>Subject: Eiritha Hills
>Sandy Petersen says :
>>She is, of course, a herd animal (what did you expect?). Horn Gate is
>>the tip of one of her horns. Agape is her mouth. The Paps are ... well
>>- -.. The Paps. There is not a major special shrine for her naughty
>>(vulva/anus), and it's just as well, I suppose.
>I believe that somewhere in the hills is a cave, and that once in a
>while a herd of strong, healthy young adult herd beasts spontaneously
>stampedes out of it. I leave the location of the cave to the reader's
>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:10:36 +0100
>From: Sergio Mascarenhas <>
>Subject: RW inspirations
>I just could not resist to send a reference to this site:
>It's about Sintra, one of the most beautiful places in Portugal (and a Word
>Eritage City) with a strong medieval scent. It's full of photographs that
>can *feed* a campaign set in the shores of the west of Genertela. Just look
>at the king's palace photohraph with an half moon in the back and a red sky
>As an Englishman put it,
>'Lo Cintra's glorious Eden intervenes
>In variegated maze of mount and glen
>Ah me! what pencil can hand guide or pen
>Through views more dazzling unto mortal ken'
>Lord Byron (Childe Harold)
>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:32:14 +0100
>From: Simon Hibbs <>
>Subject: Living with magic
>JeffJErwin says :
>Others have commented very ably and completely on some aspects of your
>post, but I would like to tackle the philosophical points you have
>>The crucial division between religious faith and world-view is that the
>>is obviously a 'leap of faith' lacking a firm foundation in anything
>>possibly inculcated by cultural stuff, or possibly self-derived...
>This is obvously the view of a modern materialist (no insult intended).
>If you had asked just about anyone previous to a few hundred years ago,
>they would simply not have understood what you meant. The religious
>prespective has, for the vast majority of the existence of our species,
>been the cornerstone of human conceptions of the world. For the
>inhabitants of the ancient world no 'leap of faith' such as the one you
>describe was required. Every aspect of their understanding of the world
>was defined in terms of their religious beliefs. Modern materialist
>atheism was littleraly inconcievable. It was only with the emergence of
>the scientific method and rationalist philosophies, which provided an
>alternate intelectual framework for describing the world, that it became
>In our modern society, the rational materialist view is the default
>amongst many intelectuals, and a 'leap of faith' is required to
>reconcile that with the religious view. In the ancient world, the
>religious view was the default, and the rational view did not exist and
>so was not an option. There were competing philosophies and religions,
>but the existoence of a divine creator and the imminence of spiritual
>power in the world was universaly accepted. In those times the term
>atheist was used to describe someone who's conception of god was
>incompatible with your own, not for people who denied divinity at all,
>as there were none.
>- -....but in
>>Glorantha, the initiate has good reason to believe in the god. There is
>>struggle between common sense and spiritual desires... they are one and
>I do not believe that the emotional and psychological effect of
>religious experience in the Glorantha is so greatly different from that
>in the real world. Just ask any believer in the charismatic religious
>movements. They can enter states of mind which have drastic effects on
>their emotional and physiological state, and can even cause spontaneous
>physical effects such as the appearance of stigmata, the ability to
>overcome debilitating medical conditions, etc.
>>2) Magic in Glorantha is very available. In a sense, Spirit or Battle
>Magic is
>>almost a magic of gadgets.
>I believe that this impression is derived from the RQ spirit magic game
>mechanics. The actual experience of spirit magic for the ordinary
>Gloranthan is only superficialy similar to the game system effects.
>Simon Hibbs
>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:04:07 -0800
>From: David Dunham <>
>Subject: Pamaltelan reptilians; Heler
>I'm starting an Umathelan campaign, and when I mentioned the lascerdans, a
>player wondered if they were slarges. (BTW, if you're asking yourself,
>"What's a lascerdan?" see
>I think they're separate (the lascerdans are extinct), but I'm not quite
>sure what the distinction is. After all, both are sentient reptilians. Are
>slarges more carnivorous and lascerdans vegetarians? Is it a desert/river
>distinction? (There's probably no hard info on this, but I'm looking for an
>easy distinction that won't make biologists cringe.)
>Julian Lord wrote
>> [Heler] was a leader of the invasion of the lands
>In the draft of Belintar's Book which I saw months ago, Heler led the
>invasion of Umathela, though my recollection is he did so as an air god and
>not a water god. His rams were certainly involved, and if I recall, he
>married a native goddess and their children continued the conquest, and
>everyone had a great time.
>David Dunham <>
>Glorantha/RQ page: <>
>Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein
>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:52:09 -0700
>From: Jeff Richard <>
>Subject: Argrath and others
>Mike Cule -
>>I agree that Kallyr must have found the burden of the Prince's task
>>enormous. We don't know if she could have done what Argrath did. She
>>failed in the Lightbringer's Quest after all. (And a question: who was
>>she trying to bring back?)
>More importantly, I am discovering that as a Kheldon tribal king, many folk
>from other tribes didn't trust Kallyr. That she was a less-than-victorious
>warleader only added to the distrust or is that dislike. To be honest,
>many Sartarites who participated in Starbrow's Rebellion were more willing
>to accept Temertain as Prince than Kallyr. Granted he later turned out to
>be a rather big disappointment, but at the time, he was viewed by some to
>be Sartar returned.
>>Ah, ha. So legitimacy comes from being powerful, eh? Not the message
>>that Sartar brought.
>No, but perfectly in the tradition of Tarkalor Trollkiller and the other
>impressive warrior-kings of the House of Sartar. Kallyr is a tribal king
>in her own right - which is definitely against the traditions of the House
>of Sartar and with good reason.
>Certainly for the Orlanthi, being powerful is a prerequisite of legitimacy.
> Sartar himself was an immensely powerful magician and had many powerful
>clients and friends. Temertain, the most "legitimate" candidate for
>Prince, was proven to be a fraud because he relied solely upon the dignity
>of his office and not his own power and cunning.
>>Or because the Telmori can see what a big fraud Argrath is.
>Argrath was ruthless, cunning and ambitious; popular with his followers;
>and an incredibly successful warleader. How can you say he was a fraud? A
>scheming, manipulative, ruthless bastard perhaps (but what successful king
>wasn't?), but a fraud? Go back to God Forgot and study Brithini iron
>Hey guys - noboby likes the Telmori! Nobody except a handful of sages who
>emphasize that the Telmori were befriended by Sartar, that is. Do
>Sartarites normally embrace dark trolls on sight because great King Heort
>(the spiffiest king of them all) befriended the Only Old One?
>>Now, I happen to believe that Argrath had very little status until after
>>the death of Kallyr and that he was the one who arranged Harrek's attack
>>on Boldhome. But believe what you like.
>I suspect that Argrath was one of several war-lords running around Sartar
>in the 1620s. Joerg asked:
>>What other warlords do you propose, Jeff? More Argraths? Including
>>Harvar Ironfist? Or other players?
>Yep, yep and definitely yep. Player character warleaders, too, I hope!
> Player-character Argraths with any luck.
>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:00:04 +0000
>From: "Jane Williams" <>
>Subject: Kallyr, Argrath(s), Telmori
>Pete Metcalfe raises a good point (as usual):
>>> "Telmori promise revenge", and "quarrel with A of P" in 1629
>> I do think they are related since the two clauses are seperated only by
>> a comma rather than a full stop. However it is the order of the
>> fragments that is most unusual IMO. The Telmori promising revenge
>> after a quarrel with Argrath of Pavis would seem straightforward to
>> most people. But we are effectively told that as a result of their
>> promises of revenge, they got involved in an Argument with A. of P.
>> which is an odd sequence of events to say the least.
>And of course the other events in that line, though separated by
>full-stops, are:
>"We kill Dinacoli. Queen Kallyr marries at last."
>This may of course be unrelated, and just list events that happened that
>year. Otherwise, we seem to have three options:
>1) Min. assumed that everyone knew on whom they promised revenge and
>why, and so left it out. As he leaves out Kallyr's husband's name.
>2) The revenge was a direct result of the marriage (though we still don't
>know why, or on who)
>3) Some later editor skipped a few items. While leaving in the bits that
>prove CHDP to be deliberately misleading.
>Perhaps this is time for a quick summary of my ideas on Kallyr's marriage
>(for reasoning, see the web page). I think she was trying to marry the
>FHQ. Gender making this awkward, she used a proxy. Garrath was the proxy.
>This explains why he is listed as marrying the FHQ this year, and then
>marrying her again (in his own right!) a few years later. Of course,
>trusting Garrath not to make the most of the situation may have been a
>bad move :(
>Now, if for some reason Garrath grabbed most of the resulting magical
>power for himself, and the Telmori knew about it, I can see them being
>upset. Quite how A of P comes into it I'm not sure: did Garrath make him
>the scapegoat? Somehow? Or was the quarrel because they expected AofP to
>join in on their side, and he didn't?
>Mike Cule:
>> I agree that Kallyr must have found the burden of the Prince's task
>> enormous. We don't know if she could have done what Argrath did.
>My guess would be not, though it depends on which of his deeds you're
>refering to. For most, both "couldn't" and "wouldn't", I think.
>> She failed in the Lightbringer's Quest after all. (And a question: who
>> was she trying to bring back?)
>She failed according to Denseros the Unbiased, who obviously totally
>misunderstood the objective of an LBQ in any case. As to who she was
>trying to bring back: Sartar, of course. His spirit was trapped by the
>Lunars, remember. Not very well: they weren't that good at it then, but
>obviously it was guarded by them. Having got it (and some of her team)
>back, she could then light the Flame.
>Does it make sense, BTW, that Garrath was part of the team, and that for
>him this was a practise run for his own LBQ?
>I wonder who did the betrayal? It doesn't have to be the Trickster :)
>> In my game the players have finally found Kallyr Starbrow in Geo's
>> Hidden Inn. They are about to present their copy of KING OF SARTAR
>> (fallen through from the Fourth Age) to her. And probably fuck the
>> timeline up enormously.
>This sounds wonderful, and I wish I was playing. Show her the list of her
>companions, and watch her ask who all these people are! (And then go and
>find them). As for the Brown Dragon... :))
>Jane Williams
>End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #539

End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #540

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