Thunderous Ladies: it looks as if we've reached general agreement that these exist, but are rare and regarded as Odd. Fine. Rare and odd is no problem (sounds like PCs to me), it was Impossible (for no reason) that was giving me trouble.
Though as Alex pointed out, this means
> that "thundering" is seen as being more characteristicly "male" than"fighting",
> which seems initially odd, but is not unsustainable by any means.
It sounds completely weird to me, since fighting requires abilities in which men have
an advantage (size, strength) but Thundering is straight magic. I can see the Rain
bit possibly being fertilisation of Ernalda's fields and hence male (then why is Heler
often seen as homo.?), but not the wind and thunder. Anyone want to explain?
And he has a nice optimistic view of the future, too:
>My sense is that there will probably be quite big changes, but that Greg
>will find a "way back", proving that any _major_ game-knackering apparent
>contradictions are only that, "apparent".
I hope so. I suspect a Way Back will only be found if we shout loudly enough. After
all, if he realised they were game-knackering in the first place, presumably he
wouldn't be putting them in. But then perhaps that overdose of Solar junk that
produced GRoY etc left Greg with the impression that if he only wrecks the game
for women, that doesn't matter. (And you blokes don't have any female PCs, do
you, to be suddenly made Impossible by the new Roolz? Well that's all right, then.)
David Cake says:
> Jane Williams has a sudden attack of grognardism
"grognard" = "one who complains"? Hardly new? And why are we talking French?
> Actually, I thought OA lost most of his Storm Powers with GOG, when
> all the Storm Voices became members of Orlanth Thunderous.
GoG is hardly a write-up: look at the RoC version, more or less the same vintage
(and the latest we've got!). OA gets his Storm/Wind spells, just not reusably.
> I just think nobody thought about it in this much detail before this argument,
I think you're right. So given that they didn't bother to think about it, what the h*ll are
they doing saying "women can't have storm powers" before doing the thinking? If
that's what they're saying. Or just what Jeff's saying: a very different thing!
And it looks as if David has Visions of the Future, too:
> There may have been occasional things I didn't like, but compared to
> (for example) how much more fascinating and enjoyable I find Orlanthi
> culture after the revelations of the story of Vingkot, the story of Lokamayadon,
> Harmast, et al, the myths of Heort (and his self-reliant initial denial of Orlanth)
> - no contest.
If these revelations had actually been made, I might agree with you. KoS doesn't
have a lot of detail on any of them, and nothing further has been published except
the snippets in Enclosure that I'm aware of.
On the question of which roles for women take you outside the 85%: surely what we're talking about is "outside standard gender roles", not "so far outside that Ernalda won't talk to you". And Vinga is certainly outside, but Vingans remain women. That's what we' on about, after all: if you're not an Ernalda initiate, you're not a woman. And if you're not an Orlanth initiate, you're not a man. It takes quite some doing to be kicked out by your gender-deity. Eurmali, some Humakti (depending on how far you take the Separation bit), but I can't think of anything else.
Even male Healers: Orlanth has a Healer aspect, after all. OK, so he usually gets a friend to take the Test of Healing for him, but it's one of his tests.
PolJoni:
Peter says:
> They are called a 'Bastard' tribe because the Praxians think they are
> complete bastards.
While I'm sure that's true to some extent, I believe the "real" definition is that they
ride one kind of animal and herd another.
Different Aspects of Orlanth:
Joerg seems to have come up with a brand new name:
> Orlanth the Youth - to avoid Warrior/Adventurous discussion
Not bad at all.
So, let me see. We now have Orlanth the Youth, who goes around making
mistakes, blowing cats out of caves, picking fights, and chatting up anything in a
skirt. Likes challenging authority, but isn't very good at it yet.
Orlanth Adventurous, similar but tougher (is the distinction perhaps that he's nicked
Death?), who ends up doing the LBQ and also beats up dragons, explores new
paths, and is good at correcting the Youth's mistakes. "No-one can make you do
anything", and "violence is always an option". Anyone can worship him as long as
they breath air.
Orlanth the Warrior, who stays at home and hits things, and likes sagas along the
lines of "Erik-of-the-WotsitSpear-and-The-Shield-of-Whoever-but-no-personality". He
mainly likes repeating OA's quests and having everything the same as before. He'd
agree with "violence is always an option", but thinks he *can* make you do anything.
He gets far more restrictive about who can join him (got to have Orlanthi parents)
and thinks women should know their place and do what they're told.
Finally Orlanth Rex sits in his throne and tells everyone what to do. Or else.
You know, I'm beginning to recognise a pattern here. Put OW and OR in the Sky Palace and they'd be right at home. No wonder I don't like them.
And that's what I'm really objecting to, for those of you who don't seem to have realised. The New Way Ahead, as described, seems to be wrecking not only Vinga but also Orlanth. The God of Freedom has become anything but.
Someone's got some funny ideas, anyway:
> But at the same time I think that Jane overreacted saying she'd ditch
> Glorantha because it wouldn't have Vinga the way she wants it,
If I'd said that, it would have been an over-reaction. I didn't. You're thinking of Allen. If
Future Glorantha has Orlanth as yet another authoritarian bigot and makes official
rules that 52% of the population can't be allowed to do anything fun, then Future
Glorantha and I will part company. Real Glorantha and I will carry on together. You
never know, when Hero Wars becomes available it may turn out to be usable
without wrecking the universe its meant for, and if so, I'll borrow it.
Enough for now: let's see if the modem will talk to me today.
Jane Williams jane_at_williams.nildram.co.uk http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~janewill/gloranth/
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