Robin Mitra commented:
>>Elmal is definitely in the sky. He's that big shining disk, also known as
>>the Sun.
>Well, I don't know much about this Yelmalio-Elmal-Controversy but when
>Yelm was dead the sun was gone. Nevertheless during the LBQ Elmal
>protected Orlanths stead. How does that work?
When the Emperor was killed and the solar disk fell from the heavens, Elmal remained as a source of light for his people. During the Darkness, there was light for the Orlanthi - Elmal. When Orlanth brought the Sun out of Hell after the LBQ, he gave it to Elmal to rule. Make sense?
>Perhaps Elmal is associated with Lightfore?
No, I really don't think so. Elmal is the Orlanthi Sun. Lightfore is not the Sun.
Nick wanted some comments on Tarsh:
Let me first give a brief overview of how I view Tarsh. Tarsh is, at its core, an Orlanthi kingdom founded on very different principles from the Sartarite tribal confederation. From the very beginning, Tarsh has been ruled by a royal bloodline - one founded when an Orlanthi hero (Arim the Pauper) married the embodiment of sovereignity in Dragon Pass (Sorana Tor). Arim's bloodline, descended from the goddess, became uniquely qualified to rule Tarsh. Although initially Arim founded a traditional Orlanthi tribe led by this sacred bloodline, his great-grandson (I believe) proved that what Arim had created was not a "tribe" but a kingdom, ruled by the son/consort of the goddess of the land.
Thus the Tarshite kings are much more powerful than their Sartarite equivalent and are more than simply warleaders and arbitrators. The Lunar dynasty developed out of this tradition and added a new twist - instead of claiming simply descent from the representative of Kero Fin, the Lunar dynasty claims descent from the goddess Hon-Eel (and from the representative of Kero Fin, although that magic is rarely relied upon for obvious reasons). The Lunar Tarshite dynasty claims as its patrons Hon-Eel, and ever since Phargentes, Hwarin Dalthippa and the Seven Mothers.
Still, at its core, the founder of the kingdom of Tarsh and the source of its kingship magic is Arim the Pauper - who is a hero of Orlanth. Ever since King Palashee Long-Axe was defeated by Phargentes Kingslayer, the Lunar Tarshite dynasty has been hostile to direct invocation of Orlanth and has built new temples to more acceptable patrons (Hwarin Dalthippa, the Great Bear, the Seven Mothers, etc.) at many traditional holy sites of Orlanth, including Grizzley Peak. That hostility, combined with the Lunar Tarshite dynasty's willingness to use Lunar chaotic magic in warfare helps explain the grave animosity that the Kero Fini traditionalists hold towards the Lunar Tarshite dynasty.
>Essentially, yes. While the Tarshite rulers are familiar with Sylilan myths
>(in which the Red Goddess' taming the Star Bear is a token of Orlanth's
>submission to her), the Tarshite population at large are *not* encouraged
to
>worship Orlanth. The Lunars in Tarsh are *very* keen on the Ernalda cult --
>this was, after all, how they got a foot in the door in the first place
(cf.
>"The Carving of Tarsh", in Wyrm's Footprints).
I agree with Nick's comment - see above. The Lunar dynasty has emphasized many old Earth goddesses - with the exceptions of Maran Gor and Babeester Gor. BTW, there is a strong Syllilan influence on the Tarshite nobility.
>> Are Bisos and Doburdun worshiped? Lunar introduced these cults from
>> Northern Peloria for them?
>I believe that this is the current account of things: Bisos (the loyal Bull
>God) "replaces" Urox the (Chaos-fighting) Storm Bull, and Doburdun (the
>loyal Thunder God) "replaces" Orlanth Thunderous (and Rebellious). This is
>only a recent discovery, which has not put down any roots or sources yet,
so
>there is little we can say for sure.
I do not believe that Bisos and Doburdun are worshipped in Tarsh - I think that they represent a none-too-successful Lunar experiment in Sartar. In Tarsh, the storm gods include Heler, the Star Bear, Odayla and many of the Thunder Brothers. In the highlands, Orlanth Thunderous is worshipped by traditionalists.
>> Can some of following cults be also introduced in Tarsh?
>> Idovanus
>Unlikely: really only worshipped by the Carmanian Magi, who live in far-off
>Carmania.
I agree with Nick - Tarsh is not in the tradition of the Lunar Heartlands. It should be emphasized that the Tarshites have the traditional Orlanthi contempt and hatred towards the Dara Happans.
>All rather similar; I think Barntar rather than Lodril (or Pelandan
>variants) is the major local peasant god in Tarsh. After all, they are
>different kinds of agriculture. (You would find plenty of Pelorian Lodril
>worshippers in Tarsh, but they aren't locals).
Barntar is the Tarshite god of farming. I suspect that Barntar is more important as a cultic figure in Tarsh than in Sartar - many of Orlanth's associations have been taken by the Tarshite Barntar.
>> Oria
>Try Ernalda, her local aspect (who is very "big" in Tarsh).
Yes, the Earth goddess are very important in Tarsh - one of the reason that the Kero Fin priestesses are so feared by the Lunar dynasty.
>> Erissa
>Chalana Arroy is local.
Let me repeat - the Tarshites worship the Orlanthi pantheon. Orlanthi is deemphasized, and his minor aspects/avatars (Barntar, Arim, etc.) emphasized.
>> Entekos
>Or Molanni (a local near-equivalent).
NO NO NO. Molanni is definitely not worshipped!!! Molanni bad bad bad! Only stupid Heartlanders would dare worship the Mother of Drought. Periodically very naive Lunar missionaries from the Silver Sultanate attempt to bring Entekos worship into the hills of Tarsh and they are shocked by the violent reaction. To Orlanthi farmers, Molanni is EVIL. Worshipping her is as popular as worshipping Malia.
>> Jajagapa
>Of minor importance, not worth making a special effort to introduce him to
>the pantheon, I'd have thought.
I agree. Jajagappa is found further north.
>> Yelm
>His worshippers are mostly hereditary nobles of Dara Happa. How would you
>introduce such a cult to a formerly barbarian Orlanthi kingdom, and why
>would you want to?
Yelm is despised by the Tarshites and is viewed as the Evil Emperor. Just because Orlanth is not directly worshipped by the lowland Tarshites (however he certainly is indirectly worshipped) doesn't mean that he has been replaced with the embodiment of tyranny....
>(NB, though, that some Yelmic types in the Empire are happy to act just
like
>their First and Second Age forebears, imposing Dara Happan ways on unruly
>subject peoples).
This is part of the conflict between Fazzur and Tatius the Bright.
>> They can worship Star Bear, or "Orlanth tamed by Red Goddess"?
>The noble rulers of Lunar Tarsh know that the Goddess tamed Orlanth. But
why
>would this predispose them to worship Orlanth? Surely they're better off
>worshipping the goddess who came out on top?
Much of this stems from King Phargentes and his very Lunarized successor. Culturally, the Tarshite royal house is more Syllilan than Tarshite - King Phargentes was raised in Jillaro and his son was educated in Glamour (I believe). As a result, their patron god is definitely not Orlanth. Further, since the Orlanthi priests backed Palashee Long-Axe and have supported several rebellions against the Tarshite royal house, the great temples of Orlanth have been largely replaced by temples to the patrons of the Tarshite royal house - the Red Goddess, the Seven Mothers, Hon-Eel and Hwarin Dalthippa.
Jeff
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