Peter Metcalfe
<< I also pointed to the Genertela boxed set
which said that six centuries ago, the rulers spoke a now-extinct
Theyalan dialect.>>
Me:
I do not disagree that the rulers of the EWF spoke a now extinct Theyalan
dialect. I think they communicated with this and Auld Wyrmish.
>It doesn't really even state that, it states Old
>Pavic "was spoken in" not "was the main language of" or "was spoken
>throughout" just "in".
Given that Pavis was not part of the EWF, perhaps you care to propose an alternative hypothesis whereby Old Pavic is somehow important enough to be spoken "in" the EWF? I do not think that the sentence was intended to mean that Old Pavic was only spoken by Pavisite tourists and traders to the EWF.
The city is pretty remote from the main Empire, it is not a direct subject of the Empire, but is closely allied to the Empire, through a shared quasi religion (draconic mysticism). It is easy to take the sentence in the way that I took it, that Pavis could almost be viewed of as part of the EWF (see for example Labrygon, 'a demigod priest from the Empire of Wyrms Friends' who was in Pavis, building a Puzzle Canal).
>My position is that the vast majority of the ordinary citizens of the EWF
>spoke whatever language they spoke before they became part of the EWF, ie
>mostly Theyalan languages, but also Dara Happan. Pure Horse Tongue,
>Beastspeech, Seshnegi (possibly, for those Impious Scholars in Nochet)
>enriched by Auld Wyrmish.
Then you run up against the Genertela Book reference which states that six centuries ago, the rulers of Peloria spoke a extinct theyalan tongue. Since this roughly corresponds to the time when the EWF ruled Peloria (the exact years of the Dragon Sun's reign was not known then) and the EWF came from what is now Sartar/Dragon's Eye, the default assumption is that the language concerned was EWF-Quivini (although all Dragon Pass would have spoken it then).
You say rulers, I say ordinary citizens. I have no quarrel with the leaders of the EWF speaking an extinct Theyalan tongue, I just don't think that it was the same as Old Pavic.
PETER
<< Now since Pavis was settled largely by people from Dragon Pass>>
Me: I think this is the basic assumption that I am questioning. I think the biggest single majority of Pavic citizens in the early days would have been Pure Horse People and their brothers, the Zebra People. In fact quoting from the History of Pavis: 'Because of the Pure Horse lineage of the inhabitants, much of the flat land was given over to pasturage..'. Also, agriculture only seems to have taken off after the Sun Domers arrived (ie 27years after its completion by Lord Pavis), to quote 'Inspired by Sun Dome methods , farmers spread all along the River of Cradles to use the new agricultural methods.' This is the reason for my belief that Old Pavic is a different language. Remember that the Pure Horse People (that remained Pure) still spoke Pure Horse in 1250 when they were all killed/escaped to Dragon Pass/were remade from Centaurs.
PETER
<< and the Old Pavisites speak a theyalan tongue enriched by Auld
Wyrmish, the simplest assumption is that their language is that
spoken by ordinary people of Dragon Pass during the EWF era.
Yes, Dara Happans, Night Kingdom folk and other subjects of the EWF will still speak their own languages but they have to communicate with the rulers. Since they can't understand Auld Wyrmish, they would have to speak a human tongue. Given the balance of power, this would usually be the ruler's own tongue ie EWF-Quivini/Old Pavic.>>
Why can they not understand Auld Wyrmish, pre 1042 it is pretty easy, just a bit of Waltzing and fasting?
ME
>A nitpick: (assuming it *meant* that speakers of Draconic
>knew Old Pavic at half their Draconic ability then the language conversion
>is not reciprocal.
PETER
A typo can not necessarily be ruled out. IMO it should be a quarter
or else we are left with the impression that speaking Auld Wyrmish
gives some insight into speaking a theyalan tongue.
ME:
Another fun retcon might be that if you learn Auld Wyrmish and then try to
speak Old Pavic you get so muddled up that you get it all wrong, so in fact
speaking Auld Wyrmish could actually detract from your Old Pavic skill.
PETER
Wyrms were friendly with humans as long ago as the Dawn Ages (cf
the D:LoD reference of Scholars on Wyrmback discovering Kartolin
Pass). They would have picked up some wyrmish then to communicate
with the less intelligent wyrms and so the language would have been
thought 'auld' when Vistikos discovered the EWF.
>>
But Darktonge isn't known as Ye Olde Darktongue, nor Hsunchen as Elder Hsunchen, Mostali isn't called Original Fortran, nor any other ancient, unchanged language, except Wyrmish, called Auld. The 'Old' in Old Pavic refers to it's origin in Old Pavis.
Keith N
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