>>> IMO the linguistic gulf [between Manirian and Pelorian languages] >>> largely results from the isolation as a result of the Dragonkill >>> and the cultural impact of the Lunar Empire upon the Pelorian >>> Orlanthi.
I'm inclined to blame the EWF-era Sairdite kingdom more than the Lunar Empire. Founded by a grandson of Nadar the Avenger (a Carmanian shah), drawing strongly of (quasi-) Orlanthi cultures of the northern Pelorian hills (Sylilan sky bear worshippers, Jajalaring dog worship), this Sairdite kingdom was Orlanthi in culture (i.e. barbarian clans and tribes), but with lots of foreign dialects to Heortling ears. The kingdom vanished by the time of the Bull Shahs, who controlled part of its remains, and raided freely through the rest.
When the Lunars fought the Carmanians, this region never saw much of civilized Dara Happa except Alkothi Shargash raiders who were unlikely to leave much linguistic evidence. When Hwarin Dalthippa formed the kingdom of Sylila with her husband Ingkot, she didn't bring a massed presence of Heartlander Lunars, either. And in any case, most Tarshites came from the wave of refugees fleeing before Hwarin's and Ingkot's joint conquests, predating any Lunar influence except for exiles after the Jannisor Wars (who may have followed the unrelenting Sairdite Orlanthi to Tarsh, accelerating the growth of cities like Bagnot or Dunstop).
This makes Tarshite a mix of various Pelorian Orlanthi dialects, including Heortling as well as more exotic Pelorian barbarian dialects. The Lunar veneer started only 160 years later, and was interrupted by Palashee Longaxe, giving it a total of about 130 years of increased presence. This is enough to absorb a lot of loan words and inflections (compare French influences on the German language from the 30-Years War to Waterloo), but not to change the character of the language completely.
> Alex Ferguson:
>>I guess that's a large chunk of it at least, though to some extent >>I'd think it'd date back to the whole business of Vingkot and his >>missuses. But in that case the boundary is less clear (at least to >>me)...
And the various foreigners wedded to his daughters, too...
> That's a possibility that hadn't occured to me. But both
> the Manirian and Pelorian sub-families include several
> peoples who were never Vingkotlings. For Maniria, there
> are the Harandings and the Caladrans while the Pelorians
> include the Talastari and the Sylilings. One could argue
> that Vingkot formed his tribes from among the northern and
> southern peoples...
Yes. Some remained apart, and some were even stranger: Beren the Rider brought in Hyalorings, and the Penentelli may have absorbed some of the Talastari language clans in Aggar. IMO each tribe had its specific dialect, if not language.
Harandings and Aramites were the sources of Wenelian influences in Manirian Theyalan. I doubt that the Caladrans had much influence on any Vingkotlings, although they may have influenced the Esrolvuli language somewhat.
Given the geographic nature of Orlanti habitat, these dialects were quite likely to survive where the Dragonkill did not depopulate a region entirely, or swamp the land with refugees. By this logic, dialects must be most terrible in Aggar and Talastar, since Manirian Theyalan had to absorb all those "Old Pavic"-speaking Heortlings wise enough to flee before the Dragonkill War, and Tarshite was entirely an immigrants' language (compare US English to British English dialects).
Add in the various enclaves of parallel cultures, like Aramite boar people (now either absorbed as Heortlings or Kitori, or turned into Tusk Riders) or Jajalaring dog people, and your linguistic map of the Barbarian Belt becomes quite colourful...
Re: Keith's debate with Peter on Old Pavic:
IMO it is likely that Old Pavic preserved the language spoken in EWF Dragon Pass around the time of the formation of the Third Council. The Pure Horse tribe became less friendly to the Pavisites, and more "Praxian", and the Beast Riders returned in strength from the Wastes. It is fairly clear that the more esoteric draconic movements (like "Here and Now Dragons") never made it to Pavis.
Auld Wyrmish may have done strange things to grammar and poetic styles, traces of which might make Old Pavic somewhat more sympathetic to Auld Wyrmish than the modern Theyalan languages which had undergone a conscious effort to strip away draconic components.
I'd expect the Issaries-worshipping Zebra riders to be linguistically more adapting than the EWF-Orlanthi of Pavis:
Keith:
> Are you suggesting that the Khan of the Pure Horse People didn't speak Pure
> Horse as his native tongue? That Old Pavic existed as a language before the
> foundation of Pavis? That the Horse People who changed to Zebra Riders
> suddenly started speaking a new Stripy Language (Old Barcode?)
No. As traders and mediators, they used the language of the people they lived with. Whatever terms their host language lacked they would provide, but given that Heortlings have a long tradition of horsemanship, I don't see much need for this.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #165
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