This is still appropriate since it is not directly rune specific, though the reference to 'fabric of life' would probably be called something slightly different.
> Umm, her holy day is in Disorder Week (the God Learners
> were shocked by this revelation) and the myth does make
> it clear that she was affected by Disorder.
She Loved them, in essence married them, so her holy day is a direct result of this myth. The god learners should have understood this.
> So why do you think Harmony can overcome Disorder?
All of the power runes exist in opposition, and balance each pair in a general sense. A goddess of Harmony should see this, and want to find a place in the world for Disorder, therefor she risks injury to embrace / love / join her opposite. Since Boggles are not the source of Disorder, it is possible that she could have overcome them, but it was not her goal. This all makes sense if Love derives from Harmony, but I can't accept Greg's version with Love deriving from Fertility.
> Chaos is not just harmony as one can see from Gark the Calm.
> It is anti-cosmos and the spike stood for everything within
> the Cosmos. Thus the destruction of the Spike damaged
> Disorder and Conflict just as it did Harmony.
> ... you're not aware that the merfolk remember the Spike
> as the Sea Heart or that it is labelled Umath's Throne in
> trollpak?
Specifically, I believe that the Spike was Acos, god of Law, the first mountain. It is associated with the throne of Yelm, the Celestial Court, and the home of the gods (including Umath).
> >> You do notice that Harana Ilor does not appear in the myth?
> >Harana is the predecessor to Chalana (and would probably be gone at
this
> >point).
> Umm, on what grounds do you think that Harana is "gone at this point"?
> ... So why doesn't Harana try to tame the boggles? Remember
> Greg is writing this from the viewpoint that Harana is
> Harmony and Uleria is Love.
It depends on whether the goddesses mentioned are Celestial Court or Young Gods. IIRC Chalana is present, so I believe that Harana, her predecessor, is gone and Chalana controls Harmony. It is primarily a question of which period the myth is in.
Greg wrote the myth to show that Love 'tamed' the Boggles, so everyone else obviously fails. From his viewpoint that is all he needs to say. His justification has to be different from mine because we are using different rune assignments. The alternative is to scrap all of the myths and start over... I'm not going to do that, I just want to clarify motives and sources.
> >Side note: Uleria is noted for courtesans, and courtesans are noted for
> >singing and playing music...
> Curious. I thought they were primarily sex workers.
Not in the RW, though that is a major skill, and the Gloranthan version is hardly changed at all. Compare to Renaissance courtesans and Geisha. Their job is to bring comfort, pleasure, and then sex.
Someone (IIRC a Different Worlds write-up) described a Uleria temple as having three doors; the first is carnal pleasure, the second is friendly discourse, and the third is procreative. These are related to the three divine spells.
Ulerian Courtesans would help in each section, but not all require a sex partner. Perhaps gentle music or a massage is more appropriate.
> >Reread my previous post... ALL Healing, restoration, and resurrection
> >magic is Fertility magic.
> I'm sorry but healing magic _is_ harmony magic according to the
> Runequest 3 Book 5.
I consider Greg's rationalization that Healing restores the body to some Harmonic ideal to be weaker than my rationalization that Healing uses Fertility to expel Death from the body and restore the flow of the Life Force.
You cite one of the rules that is changed by my premise, so it cannot be used as refutation, because it would no longer be a rule.
> >But violence is an attempt to impose Death, not Disorder.
> So if I throw a punch at someone, I am attempting to kill him?
You are clearly using Death to impose injury on a foe. If you do it enough times it -will- kill him. Assault is not a crime of disorganizing your foe, but one of threatening death or injury.
> Greg, when writing about the violent nature of the Storm Gods,
> linked them to disorder, not death.
Obviously they spread great disorder through the world by assaulting, injuring, or killing the gods they met. Many gods died during the Lesser Darkness and the Storm Wars. Most of the Disorder came from the losing gods being unable to fulfill their role in the Harmonious functioning of the world.
If there was a rune that drove them to this behavior, it would be Disorder, but Death was the tool.
> ... you are using a different meaning of abjure from common usage.
I looked it up... you are using it as 1) to renounce upon oath, to reject solemnly. I understood it to be 2) to abstain from: AVOID. Both are valid and this is exactly the difference between Chalana and Ernalda. When times are the worst, Ernalda will relent, but Chalana will not. This difference in strength of view -should- be reflected in their runes.
By inspection, both cults could be getting this runic trait from either Harmony or Fertility, and we should see similar views from other cults that have the runic source of the trait.
Is Harmony the source? Harana fought and destroyed Howling Void. Issaries is willing to fight to defend initiates, and Hunter combines Harmony with Death... there is -clearly- not a runic desire to avoid violence there.
So is Fertility the source? Grain goddesses seem to be rather meek and Eritha focuses on healing and life (without having a Harmony rune), and also procreation. Aldrya and Xiola Umbar are considered life focused and are gentle within their cultures, though they seem to worry more about replacing deaths than preventing them. All of these tolerate some violence, but less so than most other societal cults. So there is cultic support for Fertility being the source of the Peaceful trait and the intensity would seem to be related to the strength of the runic tie. Since Fertility is the power rune opposing Death, it is extremely logical that all Fertility cults should have some aversion to violence.
The big problem is that Uleria, the source of Fertility, does not have the trait in any specified form, and the second problem is that there is not a clear runic justification for Chalana to have such a strong aversion to violence when compared to other cults with one Fertility rune.
This is an inconsistent, and therefor illogical, application of a runic trait. If it is not severe enough to nag at your sensibilities, then go to the next message and leave me to my private heresy. If you want to ask whether there might be a better interpretation of Gloranthan mythos that resolves the oversight, I say that there is.
These are my primary concepts to reconcile the irregularities... Change Uleria to Harmony-Infinity with traits of Loving and Cooperation.Take away the Fertility spell and replace it with something like Mass Harmony. She is the goddess of Love, whose magics promote harmonious relations at different levels. Courtesan is a Harmony based skill which enhances pleasant thought, comfort, and the unity of lovers; it's use is often augmented with pleasant music and good food. E.Lucidity amplifies Harmony between lovers and brings ecstasy. Community amplifies Harmony between groups and aids understanding and agreement. Mass Harmony should promote cooperation among large groups and aid with problems such as riot control. The spell of City Harmony might fill this niche, possibly with adjustments.
Uleria, not Harana, would have defeated Howling Void with Harmony for the sake of the world. She 'married' or 'tamed' the boggles out of love and to help them find a proper place in the world. Harmony can ally with runes such as Death, as long as the spirits are placated after dying. Uleria would not oppose pregnancy or conception avoidance for the sake of harmonious living, although it might be gently discouraged. This protects her Priestesses and Courtesans from having an unnecessary number of offspring. There might actually be a spell effect to do this or just herb lore.
Change Harana Ilor to Fertility-Infinity with traits of Peaceful and Productive. She is no longer worshipped, but her cult would have been similar to Chalana Arroy. It is possible that they are the same spirit, but Harana or Chalana gave away so much healing magic to other gods that she lost the Infinity rune and gained Harmony as partial compensation.
Chalana Arroy is Fertility-Fertility-Harmony and takes vows against violence and bloodshed because it violates the Peaceful nature of the Life Force and Fertility. Wounds, poisons, and Stat loss are the forcing of Death into a body. Healing magic is the repulsing of these Death powers and the restoration of the full Life Force. Since many Fertility cults enhance procreation, Chalana should have some access to these magics also, or a single, more universal spell.
Cults with weaker ties to Fertility will avoid sentient killing except in self-defense. They will kill plants and animals, but usually attempt to placate the spirits, if they know how.
Special cases: some Fertility cults are consistent within their culture, but not to outsiders...
Aldryami are very peaceful if left alone, but they are so paranoid, they tend to treat strangers as invaders.
Xiola Umbar is considered merciful or gentle among trolls, but shares the troll willingness to kill lesser life forms for food. Of course, trolls consider most sentients to be lesser life forms.
I think that I have written most of my 1000 word argument by now, and I have little else to say in presentation or defense.
I made these changes for my campaign, and there were a few ripples, but
the only real complaint was the Eurmal who wanted to join Uleria to learn
seduction and Courtesan. I forbid simultaneous membership due to
conflicting runes and conflicts of acolyte status, and he has had to study
by private research.
Stancliff
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #216
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