>> and the Aeolians aren't farmers AFAIK.
>While IMO the Aeolian Hendriki don't exclude farmers, I will admit that
>their farming magic tends to be crappier than comparable theist farming
>magics available in Heortland.
I meant farming in the sense of being free Orlanthi farmers. Aeolians can be found in the countryside as transient labourers much like the Irish were in England or Antebellum South.
>Culturally, they aren't too different from the
>surrounding Hendriki, who in turn have adopted Malkioni societal
>concepts into their theist society.
The Hendreiki as a whole do not employ Malkioni concepts in their religious affairs. The Aeolians do and that is what makes them different. Furthermore I think the Aeolians are socially disadvantaged as a result of past historical misdeeds.
>Their sect is defined after a founding saint, but - again IMO - not to
>the exclusion of other saints, and - yet again IMO - including use of
>the theist deities of the other Hendriki.
It would be impossible for them to worship the Orlanthi pantheon as the other Hendreiki do.
>They started out in the cities, with the cities really (most of
>Heortland's cities seem to have started during or shortly after the
>Bright Empire's reign in Heortland),
I don't believe the Bright Empire ever ruled in Heortland and I find it difficult to believe that a Malkioni sect could have its origins in this period, considering there are little or no malkioni minorities founded at this time along Arkat's route. The only one that I know of, Black Arkat, is a secret society rather than a Malkioni sect.
Hence I believe the Aeolians in the Imperial Age as a result of contacts with the God Learners or the Zistorites. As a result of their associations with such people, they have incured some social penalties which still exist today.
>but there is no reason not to
>include or spread out to farming as well.
The reason why I do not think of Aeolians as farmers is this. The Hendreiki value the traditional Orlanthi lifestyle and freedom above everything else such that land is still communally owned and they have a strong resistance to living in the cities. Their mindset is similar to that of Antebellum Southern USA except they don't own slaves. "Cattle is King" as they say in Heortland.
Now the Aeolians as a result of past misdeeds have had their land confiscated and have virtually no opportunity for being free farmers. They must support themselves by doing tasks that the hendreiki do not want to do such as being crafters etc.
As a result the Aeolians have been looked down upon by the mainstream Orlanthi because they do not live as Orlanthi should.
>[The Aeolians] are Malkioni by religious practise, but Hendriki
>by nation and culture. (There is neither indication nor point
>to their having anything resembling the orthodox caste system.)
As Malkioni, they would have the Caste structure as it is critical to providing order in their social and magical universe. It's like expecting the Orlanthi not to have chiefs, clans or god-talkers. They need not practice it like the Rokari do but they still must have castes.
>> In the beginning, the Aeolians are part of the Nochet bishopric.
>In name, at least, from the Nochet POV. I doubt that the Aeolians
>themselves see it this way. This is similar to Augustinus finding
>himself at odds with converts from Irish missionaries.
Bear in mind that this is during the Pharaoh's reign when the Nochet Bishopric is isolated from the rest of mainstream Malkionism. The only Malkioni that the Bishopric is likely to encounter between the Closing and the Opening are the Trader Princes who are Stygians.
The Pharaoh has ample opportunity to enforce harmony or religious conformity on all the Malkioni within his realm and I think it probable that he did so. Considering there are more Aeolians that Nochet Malkioni, the latter would have to make the most movement.
>> The creed is some sort of Stygianism that the Pharaoh has
>> tinkered around with.
>IMO it's some sort of Henotheism, not Stygianism. Personal enlightenment
>doesn't seem to play any role here.
They may have been henotheists in the Imperial Age, but I expect them to be greatly influenced by the Trader Princes who are Stygians.
>One of the issues is how much of the Orlanthi
>inheritance in Heortland's "constitution" will remain under Malkioni
>reign, e.g. how much of the freedom to follow chosen leaders.
Is there some reason to think that every Orlanthi constitution satisfies the needs and aspirations of all its members? I believe the Aeolians are dissatisfied with the constitution and want a better social position for themselves with respect to the Orlanthi.
They are city dwellers and any chosen offical might be elected by the farmers. Hence the leaders they've had to deal with (before Sir Richard showed up) would have been just another Orlanthi with barely concealed contempt for city-dwellers.
>> The Seshnegi faction not only includes immigrant knights from
>> Nolos, Pasos and Tanisor but also native Aeolians who have
>> been seduced by the fame and fortunes of these knights.
>Up to native Orlanthi Hendriki flirting with these. In 1617, this
>faction was powerful enough to make Richard King of the Hendriki.
Oh, yes, I forgot the Orlanthi. IMO the Seshnegi have showed up at the right moment of Heortland's Malkionization such that many (but not most) Orlanthi nobles after a couple of centuries of Malkionization see the new faith as attractive because it idealizes what they see good in life.
>> Hence I don't
>> believe that the Seshnegi in Heortland are po-faced Rokari
>> zealots imposing their creed on the Aeolians with the fire
>> and the sword.
>I don't claim this was the case everywhere, either.
I wasn't arguing that you did. I was thinking of:
During the time that Sir Richard the Tigerhearted ruled this country [the Aeolian Church] was persecuted and Richard's native Rokarism was imported. Sog City Guidebook p35.
>But
>I do think that there are some such po-faced zealots in league with
>greedy mercenary types come to power under Richard (and a bishop from a
>mercantyle dynasty) which perform this iconoclasm.
I don't think the po-faced Zealots would have a bishop of their own. Perhaps a Prelate or something.
>> The main opponents of the Seshnegi faction are not more
>> conservative Aeolians IMO but suspicious Heortland nobles
>> who believe that the Seshnegi plan to place the pagan
>> Heortlanders in bondage to the land.
>That's what I called "more conservative Aeolian".
Is it your opinion that the nobles of heortland are Aeolians? IMO they were all traditional Orlanthi (at least until Sir Richard appears) with contempt for Aeolians (past misdeeds, city-dweller) and so it's erroneous to call them Aeolian.
>> The Aeolians seem to me to be more of a collection of like-minded
>> communities scattered throughout the towns and cities of Heortland
>> each with its own little church rather than have a organized
>> hierarchy that a "church with a schism" implies.
>The individual's rights to appeal to authorities of his own choosing may
>be seen as a political issue, but IMO this tradition inherited from the
>Heortling and Hendriki culture is anathema to the more orthodox
>Malkioni.
But both sides allow the Aeolian communities to have their own leaders hence there's no schism on this matter. What does rankle with Aeolians is that as city-dwellers in a culture that glorifies the traditional Orlanthi farming lifestyle, they are second-class. They want the rulers to treat them better.
>To take it back to Heortland, if you have
>a monolithic church (of Leplain) backing one faction in an ambiguous
>sect with the other side supporting an almost non-hierarchical approach,
>I have used the term schism.
The backers are the united religious and civil leaders of the Quinpolic league, not LePlain.
The Aeolians who favour the Seshnegi cause do not want a rigid hierarchy in the Aeolian Church but simply seek a betterment of the social position of Aeolians within Heortland. There's no religious dispute to my mind.
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