>>While IMO the Aeolian Hendriki don't exclude farmers, I will admit >>that their farming magic tends to be crappier than comparable >>theist farming magics available in Heortland.
Peter Metcalfe
> I meant farming in the sense of being free Orlanthi farmers.
> Aeolians can be found in the countryside as transient labourers
> much like the Irish were in England or Antebellum South.
Do you have any reason or evidence for the absence of Aeolian land-holders? Apparently there even are Aeolian nobles, what is their base of support?
>>Culturally, they aren't too different from the >>surrounding Hendriki, who in turn have adopted Malkioni societal >>concepts into their theist society.
> The Hendreiki as a whole do not employ Malkioni concepts in
> their religious affairs.
Correct.
> The Aeolians do and that is what makes them different.
Correct again. That is almost all what makes them different.
> Furthermore I think the Aeolians
> are socially disadvantaged as a result of past historical
> misdeeds.
More disadvantaged than the refugees which came south before the Dragonkill?
They may have flirted with some of the Zistorite ideas, but IMO they helped destroy the Clanking City after recognizing their error.
In short, very parallel to Orlanth trying something new (like Death) and then going to remedy this.
>>Their sect is defined after a founding saint, but - again IMO - >>not to the exclusion of other saints, and - yet again IMO - >>including use of the theist deities of the other Hendriki.
> It would be impossible for them to worship the Orlanthi pantheon
> as the other Hendreiki do.
Yes, of course - that's why they use the Henotheist mode of worship, or veneration. I.e. they don't kill cattle in their ceremonies, they don't fly to Mt. Kerofin (or Stormwalk), etc. They do retell key myths of Orlanth and others, and they do know some of the secrets.
>>They started out in the cities, with the cities really (most of >>Heortland's cities seem to have started during or shortly after the >>Bright Empire's reign in Heortland),
> I don't believe the Bright Empire ever ruled in Heortland
Palangio held Kethaela for decades. The Hendriki were forced into the mountains while the siege of the Obsidian Palace was going on.
> and
> I find it difficult to believe that a Malkioni sect could have
> its origins in this period, considering there are little or no
> malkioni minorities founded at this time along Arkat's route.
We know that some of the most steadfast companions remained with Arkat even after he left a religion for yet another one, but each time some followers drew the line as well. This might just yield a small group of fairly tolerant Malkioni licking their wounds among the Hendriki while Arkat became a troll.
> The only one that I know of, Black Arkat, is a secret society
> rather than a Malkioni sect.
It doesn't take many saintly missionaries to convert a sizeable number of barbarians. In fact, one active missionary and a few companions managed in Ireland, Northumbria, or Saxony.
> Hence I believe the Aeolians in the Imperial Age as a result
> of contacts with the God Learners or the Zistorites.
Well, I don't. Neither God Learners nor Zistorites are likely to spawn a Stygian or Henotheist sect. I find the origins in the wake of Arkat a lot more palatable. The Zistorite or God Learner presence during the middle Imperial Age might have swelled their numbers (during a time when traditional ways were challenged or even suppressed by the EWF as well).
> As a
> result of their associations with such people, they have
> incured some social penalties which still exist today.
They still carry a social stigma for their original sympathizing with the citizens of Lylket (and possibly more distant Jadnor and Locsil as well), but neither did the surviving dragonfriends (i.e. those who left in time) come to Heortland with a clear record.
The Orlanthi do accept people who made mistakes but stand ready to remedy them. They don't tolerate people who are stubborn in their support of enemies easily. The Aeolians survived the aftermath of the Machine Wars, the aftermath of the Dragonkill, and the Heortland civil wars around Belintar's arrival without being driven out of their homes. This doesn't indicate they were entirely unrepentant.
>>but there is no reason not to
>>include or spread out to farming as well.
> The reason why I do not think of Aeolians as farmers is this.
> The Hendreiki value the traditional Orlanthi lifestyle
> and freedom above everything else such that land is still
> communally owned and they have a strong resistance to living
> in the cities. Their mindset is similar to that of
> Antebellum Southern USA except they don't own slaves. "Cattle
> is King" as they say in Heortland.
> Now the Aeolians as a result of past misdeeds have had their
> land confiscated and have virtually no opportunity for being
> free farmers.
Sez you.
While I appreciate your efforts to introduce some gypsie element to the region, I doubt that the Aeolians fit that bill.
If they are a power to be reckoned in the struggle for the throne, they must have some strong political influence. IMO this means they need some feudal army, which in turn demands some feudal backbone - i.e. possession or at least lease of land.
It might be possible that the Aeolians had to suffer a time of somewhat landless existance, but I suppose their support of the Pharaoh would have given them some land back. It is possible that they manage control over this land differently from the Hendriki, but if they have influence, then they will control some land.
> They must support themselves by doing tasks
> that the hendreiki do not want to do such as being crafters etc.
A considerably larger number than other Hendriki does - the Aeolians may have an urbanisation rate of one in three. That still leaves lots of rurals.
> As a result the Aeolians have been looked down upon by the
> mainstream Orlanthi because they do not live as Orlanthi should.
As have the Elmali clans, or troll friends. Aeolians do share much of the Hendriki culture.
>>[The Aeolians] are Malkioni by religious practise, but Hendriki >>by nation and culture. (There is neither indication nor point >>to their having anything resembling the orthodox caste system.)
> As Malkioni, they would have the Caste structure as it is critical
> to providing order in their social and magical universe. It's like
> expecting the Orlanthi not to have chiefs, clans or god-talkers.
> They need not practice it like the Rokari do but they still must
> have castes.
Yes - nobles, warriors, providers, magicians.
> >> In the beginning, the Aeolians are part of the Nochet bishopric.
> >In name, at least, from the Nochet POV. I doubt that the Aeolians
> >themselves see it this way. This is similar to Augustinus finding
> >himself at odds with converts from Irish missionaries.
> Bear in mind that this is during the Pharaoh's reign when the
> Nochet Bishopric is isolated from the rest of mainstream
> Malkionism.
Already during the reign of the Only Old One.
> The only Malkioni that the Bishopric is likely
> to encounter between the Closing and the Opening are the
> Trader Princes who are Stygians.
True.
> The Pharaoh has ample opportunity to enforce harmony or
> religious conformity on all the Malkioni within his realm
> and I think it probable that he did so.
> Considering there
> are more Aeolians that Nochet Malkioni, the latter would
> have to make the most movement.
>>> The creed is some sort of Stygianism that the Pharaoh has >>> tinkered around with.
>>IMO it's some sort of Henotheism, not Stygianism. Personal >>enlightenment doesn't seem to play any role here.
> They may have been henotheists in the Imperial Age, but I
> expect them to be greatly influenced by the Trader Princes
> who are Stygians.
It is true that the Neo-Stygians of post-drowning Safelster formed the Trader Princes, but they started already from Jorstland when the re-formulation of Stygianism was still rudimentary and God Learner-influenced Malkioni tried to revive what meagre memories they had of Arkat's Dark Empire.
I think it is agreed that the Trader Princes cared little for religious matters but a lot for lucrative trade. Their main influence will have been in worldly affairs - they created demand of trade goods, introduced new trade goods (e.g. primitive chivalrous armour) to the Hendriki, and set enough of an example that the Hendriki adopted their caste terminology for their own Orlanthi classes. (Unless that already preceded the Trader Princes and started in the Second Age...)
>>One of the issues is how much of the Orlanthi >>inheritance in Heortland's "constitution" will remain under Malkioni >>reign, e.g. how much of the freedom to follow chosen leaders.
> Is there some reason to think that every Orlanthi constitution
> satisfies the needs and aspirations of all its members?
No. But neither for any other constitution. A moot point.
> I believe the Aeolians are dissatisfied with the constitution and
> want a better social position for themselves with respect to
> the Orlanthi.
So does every group.
> They are city dwellers and any chosen offical might be elected
> by the farmers.
Circular argument.
Besides, "follow chosen leaders" doesn't necessarily mean you get to elect your leaders. It does mean that you choose which of the various kinds of leaders there are you want to follow (in any given case).
> Hence the leaders they've had to deal with
> (before Sir Richard showed up) would have been just another
> Orlanthi with barely concealed contempt for city-dwellers.
Or a fellow Aeolian with all the fervour to better his (and/or their) lot.
>>> The Seshnegi faction not only includes immigrant knights from >>> Nolos, Pasos and Tanisor but also native Aeolians who have >>> been seduced by the fame and fortunes of these knights.
>>Up to native Orlanthi Hendriki flirting with these. In 1617, this >>faction was powerful enough to make Richard King of the Hendriki.
> Oh, yes, I forgot the Orlanthi. IMO the Seshnegi have showed
> up at the right moment of Heortland's Malkionization such that
> many (but not most) Orlanthi nobles after a couple of centuries
> of Malkionization see the new faith as attractive because it
> idealizes what they see good in life.
>>> Hence I don't >>> believe that the Seshnegi in Heortland are po-faced Rokari >>> zealots imposing their creed on the Aeolians with the fire >>> and the sword.
>>I don't claim this was the case everywhere, either.
> I wasn't arguing that you did. I was thinking of:
> During the time that Sir Richard the Tigerhearted ruled
> this country [the Aeolian Church] was persecuted and
> Richard's native Rokarism was imported.
> Sog City Guidebook p35.
The freeform polarized the factions in a stronger way to increase tensions.
I say this was true locally, and untrue elsewhere.
>>But I do think that there are some such po-faced zealots in >>league with greedy mercenary types come to power under Richard >>(and a bishop from a mercantyle dynasty) which perform this >>iconoclasm.
> I don't think the po-faced Zealots would have a bishop of their
> own. Perhaps a Prelate or something.
What prevents the Nochet bishop from going out of his way to impress the Ecclesiarch in Leplain (hoping to earn a more influential see closer to his family's power base)?
It wouldn't be unheard of to support a local noble in his machinations to plunder the conquered natives. Think of the Sheriff of Nottingham in the Costner version of Robin Hood for Mularik Ironeye in Jansholm, and you're close to one of my campaign themes.
> >> The main opponents of the Seshnegi faction are not more
> >> conservative Aeolians IMO but suspicious Heortland nobles
> >> who believe that the Seshnegi plan to place the pagan
> >> Heortlanders in bondage to the land.
> >That's what I called "more conservative Aeolian".
> Is it your opinion that the nobles of heortland are Aeolians?
Only some are.
> IMO they were all traditional Orlanthi (at least until Sir
> Richard appears) with contempt for Aeolians (past misdeeds,
> city-dweller) and so it's erroneous to call them Aeolian.
IMO there are Aeolian nobles in Heortland. The kingdom's leadership and nobility is based in part on merit, and there is nothing to prevent Aeolians from joining this circle.
There are lots of traditional Hendriki nobles (clan leaders and office-holders), probably more than their Aeolian counterparts when you put them into relation to Hendriki and Aeolian census (and quite definitely more in absolute numbers).
> >> The Aeolians seem to me to be more of a collection of like-minded
> >> communities scattered throughout the towns and cities of Heortland
> >> each with its own little church rather than have a organized
> >> hierarchy that a "church with a schism" implies.
> >The individual's rights to appeal to authorities of his own choosing may
> >be seen as a political issue, but IMO this tradition inherited from the
> >Heortling and Hendriki culture is anathema to the more orthodox
> >Malkioni.
> But both sides allow the Aeolian communities to have their own
> leaders hence there's no schism on this matter. What does rankle
> with Aeolians is that as city-dwellers in a culture that glorifies
> the traditional Orlanthi farming lifestyle, they are second-class.
> They want the rulers to treat them better.
If the Hendriki culture glorifies the traditional Barntaring farming style so much, then why did the clans which formed the Quivini emigrate?
I think it is evident that the Hendriki aren't identical to the Sartarite clans and tribes. (We are sort of judging 17th century England by the Pilgrim Fathers if we assume identical conditions in Heortland and Quiviniland during the Heortland civil war.)
>>To take it back to Heortland, if you have >>a monolithic church (of Leplain) backing one faction in an >>ambiguous sect with the other side supporting an almost >>non-hierarchical approach, I have used the term schism.
> The backers are the united religious and civil leaders of the
> Quinpolic league, not LePlain.
You think the Ecclesiarch or his cronies have no influence at all? Do you really think he will neglect the revenues from the simony to be expected in this new territory?
> The Aeolians who favour the Seshnegi cause do not want a rigid
> hierarchy in the Aeolian Church
But they accept it if it helps their political goals
> but simply seek a betterment of
> the social position of Aeolians within Heortland.
The Aeolians among their opponents seek the same betterment, through alliance to the other side. And they do mind the price of a strong hierarchy controlled by outsiders.
> There's no religious dispute to my mind.
There is a dispute about religious hierarchy mixed into the general issue. And some berserk iconoclast prelates licking some greedy sheriff's boots build up resentment in religious matters as well.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #285
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