> The Aeolians IMO have committed crimes against the Kingdom.
According to your story, the Bingistans (if they exist) as well.
Apart from this story, any "crime against the Kingdom" has to be written yet.
> That tends to be remembered more than the offense of once
> being a landless stickpicker from the north.
A landless stickpicker who brought civil war to the kingdom (wrong ideas about kingship, religion, etc).
>>They may have flirted with some of the Zistorite ideas, but IMO they >>helped destroy the Clanking City after recognizing their error.
> I think the origin of the Aeolians is contained in the
> myth of Orlanth and the Machine God.
If anything, this tells about their history as a separate group, by your story.
> In particular:
> Zistor had an evil brother named Gorings the Tap,
> who twisted Bingista and another which we can't
> remember anymore, and made them into food for
> Bingista.
> KoS p95
> Two Hendreiki tribes IMO would have been magically enslaved
> to act as enforcers for the Zistorites (much like the Campbells
> of Glencoe).
Who they?
> They were only released after Zistor was defeated.
> One of them was the Bingistans and the other is the Aeolians.
Nice piece of speculation. But I don't believe that Hendriki tribes were involved as combat slaves. The Machine War should have a cross between WWI ditch war and Gran-Bretanian techno-sorcery on the Zistorite side, and not barbarian mercenaries.
> So why are the Bingistans remembered and the Aeolians not
> in the myth?
Why is the god Bingista remembered, and the other one not? Because it was tapped of all identity. I guess Bingista is one of the local Thunder Brothers for the Hendriki. Do you want to suggest that Aeolus was too, before the God Learners came?
A god which cannot be remembered means the Zistorites did a Very Bad Thing.
> I turn to p102 of KoS and find that "40,000 men invaded
> from the south" in support of the True Golden Horde.
> These are not the Kingdom of Night forces for the Only
> Old One sends a different army entirely to help the
> Dragonewts. They could be the God Forgotten but they
> have a population of only 50,000 tops so at least three
> quarters of the army came from somewhere else.
Any organized force from Heortland would have had to travel directly below the Obsidian Palace through the ambush-alley now known as Volsaxi Valley, with trolls on both flanks. As an alternative, the Wenelian clans come to mind. Maybe Caladralanders as well, through the Lysos gap into Dragon Pass, further from the troll strongholds.
> My guess is that Aeolians made up a large part of that
> army and were damned for it.
With what kind of equipment? If your story is correct, the former Zistorite guardians would be fairly destitute and next to outlawed at this point.
> They are now lower than
> the Bingistans because they have now voluntarily joined
> in with their enemies.
How many Hendriki think fondly of dragonewts? IIRC, they were a terror to the Colymar when they crossed into Kerofinela.
> For this the myth-teller choses
> to forget the name of the other spirit to deny him
> legitimacy within the Heortland social order.
You mean, like Densesros treats Kallyr in CHDP?
I wonder how the Bingistans and Aeolians in your story came to be tied so closely to the spirits captured by the Zistorites. I doubt that a tribal wyter can be "the Good Wind". Do you propose more such connections of sub-tribes (or whatever) of the Hendriki to individual winds?
> The only
> other option for forgetting names occurs if something
> is destroyed by Chaos which isn't applicable here for
> the other spirit was in fact freed by Chalana Arroy.
The Orlanthi definition of Chaos might include the consequences of Tapping.
Besides, Chalana Arroy "released" the other spirit (or what was left of it). Allowed it to escape the half-life Gorings had reduced it to?
(What would Chalana release a wraith or vampire to? Healing of Undeath or hollowness might be allowing it Death (and rebirth).)
P>>> I don't believe the Bright Empire ever ruled in Heortland
J>>Palangio held Kethaela for decades.
P> Which does not mean that he ruled in Heortland.
The Bright Empire occupied the core parts of Kethaela - rich Esrolia and rebellious Heortland (at that time still including Kerofinela). Caladraland probably even supported him in rebellion against the Chainer of Caladra.
Heortland was the land along the Creek-Stream River for practically all its length. There is no reason for Palangio to stop at the Crossline.
A presence near the Footprint would also increase their access to the Krarshtkids used on the Redstone Caves. (497 ST, as mentioned on p.41 in 3rd ed Uz Lore for the High Entry, seems to be an error. The combined dwarf and krarshtkid assault mentioned (p.16) as one of the more bizarre events of the Gbaji Wars more likely occurred in 397.)
IMO there can be no doubt that there were cities in Heortland (modern as well as that time's definition) early in the Second Age. By the time of Hrestol Arganitis the area was teeming with cities outsizing any of Sartar's foundations except possibly Boldhome.
>>The Hendriki were forced into the
>>mountains while the siege of the Obsidian Palace was going on.
> All we are told is that "some bandit groups, such as the
> legendary Hendriki, [...] evaded capture" (RQC p17). Since
> the Hendreiki also managed to worship Orlanth during the
> same period (WF p30) despite Lokamayadon's curses, I see
> a strong magic component to the continued freedom of the
> Hendreiki.
Sure, why not? After all, there's Old Wind Temple and Stormwalk for them to get nearer to the Storm Gods.
If the Hendriki continued to worship Orlanth, did their worship differ from Harmast's? Or did Harmast even live among them?
>>We know that some of the most steadfast companions remained with >>Arkat even after he left a religion for yet another one, but each >>time some followers drew the line as well. This might just yield a >>small group of fairly tolerant Malkioni licking their wounds among >>the Hendriki while Arkat became a troll.
> Arkat has liberated Kethaela by this time, so there's no real
> reason for Malkioni to be licking their wounds among the
> Hendreiki as the latter are friendly to Arkat.
Exactly. I don't believe that they survived Arkat's battles unscathed, and they'd camp with his human allies rather than with his newly won troll friends. Perhaps I should have said tending to their wounds, but IMO Arkat's increasing friendliness with the trolls was a wound to be licked.
> They could be
> licking their wounds in Esrolia which is much more pleasant
> and even has an Bishopric there.
It's also a lot further from the battles. Heortland still included what became Sartar at this time.
>>It doesn't take many saintly missionaries to convert a sizeable >>number of barbarians. In fact, one active missionary and a few >>companions managed in Ireland, Northumbria, or Saxony.
> Arkat's crusade was not marked by saintly conversion of
> barbarians but the destruction of the enemy.
I was referring to "Aeolus" (or his "prophet"), not Arkat. Arkat did not found the Aeolians himself.
In the long run, Arkat's crusade turned all of barbarian Safelster into the Stygian Empire. In Slontos he picked up somewhat Malkionized Theyalans, and with these, Ralian barbarians and remnants of earlier companies including even some Brithini he arrived in Kethaela. He fought decisive battle at the Traveling Stone, i.e. on the border between Heortland and Saird.
And most "saintly" missionaries who were successful were pretty powerful and vengeful characters.
>>Neither God Learners nor Zistorites are likely to spawn a >>Stygian or Henotheist sect.
> I agree they are unlikely to but it has happened several times.
> The Twin Priests of Caladra & Aurelion, the Umathelans being
> forced to worship the False Gods, the Trickster Temple of
> Hofhadalos the Unwise in Slontos,
All are pure theist cults, under God Learner definitions.
> and at least one Arkat Cult
Which one? What form of Arkat cult? (The Deceiver?)
> all suggest the God Learners would not be above creating a
> henotheist group to further their political ambitions.
The Arkat cult was the only thing resembling a henotheist group in your list...
> What have the refugees of Dragon Pass ever done to the Heortlanders?
Taken their land, to begin with. Brought the wrath of the dragons upon them. Were in bed with the dragons, too, and stole their magic during the Third Council, weakening them so that Bingista was captured.
> There are no dragonfriends among them as they've all been eaten
> circa 1042 ST.
There are no dragonspeakers among them, since all surviving dragonfriends lost the ability to communicate with the dragonewts. Dragonfriends weren't eaten en masse before 1120.
> As part of the Kingdom of Night, the Heortlanders would have
> fought for the Dragonewts against the True Golden Horde.
I agree. Including the Aeolians. Apart from any group among them which chose not to follow Ezkankekko but help raid the 'newts instead.
>>The Aeolians survived the aftermath of the Machine Wars, the >>aftermath of the Dragonkill, and the Heortland civil wars around >>Belintar's arrival without being driven out of their homes. >>This doesn't indicate they were entirely unrepentant.
> Plenty of minority groups have committed even more political
> errors without being exterminated.
Without deportation? The British Jews (which bear so much resemblance to the picture you paint of the Aeolians) were exiled for less crimes or errors. Same for the early immigrants of New England.
>>It might be possible that the Aeolians had to suffer a time of >>somewhat landless existance, but I suppose their support of the >>Pharaoh would have given them some land back.
> The Pharaoh may have done so, but when he gave rule back to
> the King of Heortland who would have taken the land back as a
> restoration of the traditional constitution. Another
> miscalculation for the Aeolians.
Only if you want it to be that way. I don't. There is no comparable practice known anywhere in Orlanthi regions - the only place with anything remotely similar is Naskorion, where only the Duke owns the land, and that's deepest Stygia.
I asked that if Hendriki society so glorified the Barntar farming life, then why did the Quivini clans leave, and Peter gave five good reasons.
I especially like e):
> e) They were encouraged to leave by the Heortlanders
> because they had acquired discouraged customs from
> refugees.
So they are different up there in Sartar from what they left behind.
> The fact they don't form cities until Sartar comes along is to me
> evidence that the Heortlanders do not like cities either.
The Quivini don't form cities because they lack the population, cohesion or pressure to do so.
Heortland has roughly the same area as Sartar, and thrice the number of inhabitants. Some condition for the glorified farming culture...
>>I think it is evident that the Hendriki aren't identical to the >>Sartarite clans and tribes.
> Not now they aren't, but they were much closer during the 1300s.
Also meaning that the clans and tribes from which the Quivini immigrants separated were somewhat different from the "better, purer" ways they founded in Quiviniland.
Powered by hypermail