Re: Instant torture

From: Alex Ferguson <abf_at_yeats.ucc.ie>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:19:27 GMT


Before I join David, Martin, and Peter in the trenches, let's recap what we're fairly sure of, or at least, what I imagine is moderately non-controversial (cue me getting flamed over the following, likely):

        o ITCs were not nice places.         

	o  Sheng's motivation for entering one was likely, as Martin
	   says, pride, and a wish to demonstrate how Real Tuff
	   he was.  I personally doubt it was really related to
	   either the ostensible purpose of the camp, or what eventually
	   transpired.

	o  The _Kralori's_ motivation in allowing him was likely that
	   they were quite certain it would utterly break him.  (Again,
	   this doesn't really depend on what the true purpose of the
	   Camp was.)

	o  In the course of his stay, he achieves a genuine mystical
	   transformation.

	o  He flubs on the final hurdle, and so does not achieve
	   Liberation, Awakening, Enlightment, or Whatever, but merely
	   Hideous Temporal Power.  (Though if it was sold to him
	   as 'King of the World', he should maybe get his money back.)


It's possibly that these last two are completely accidental, and arise wholly spontaneously from his mis-treatment. But I don't think that's very likely. As I said before, the _precise_ original purpose of the camp is likely to be obscure for historical reason, but it does, I think, have a basis in some sort of mystic practice. (Sado-mysticism, anyone?)

But this doesn't necessarily do significant harm to what Martin's said about Sheng: for one thing, the purpose of the Camp may have been entirely obscure to him. Frankly, I suspect it would have been obscure to most people watching what they got up to in there. ("And that has *got* to hurt!") And come to that, it's not impossible that the Kralori authorities may have made some less than good faith use of the ITCs, sending people there as a de jure 'religious experience', and a de facto hideous punishment.

One might object this is _suspicously_ like the Danfive Xaroni, in fact. But quite possibly that's where the Lunars nicked the idea from... (Presumbly lots of bits of Gerra were chucked in too, of course.)

Svechin:
> Their parallel on our world would be the concentration camp, the ethnic
> cleansing centre, the Khmer Rouge holiday resorts and the Gulag.

Not really good parallels, I don't think. Perhaps a better one would be assorted mediaeval religious persecutions: yes, we're going to torture you to an obscene degree, but not only do you deserve it, it will do you the world of good, spiritually speaking. Genocide and pogroms for some discernable political purpose are rather different, in terms of how they're carried out.

> Exactly. Much as the entire Verbande of the Death Camps used the slave
> labour at their disposal in WW2 to outfit the Waffen SS divisions with all
> sorts of equipment, I think the pragmantic Kralori would use the labour,
> spirits AND the bodies as a resource.

But it's not the Instant Labour Camp. They're not even, by all appearances, an efficient means of killing people, so not a great source of either bodies or spirits.

> Again, I agree with David here. From the Kralori POV, they were damn sure
> that this would break him. After all, it brakes everyone else! Lets himble
> this arrogant barbarian and show him what real hardship is! Remember that
> the Pentans are very prideful of their toughness in comparison to civilised
> folk.

I agree with most of this. Certainly they thought it would break him, as I'm sure it did most of its 'pupils'. But what would demonstrate _their_ superiority was that (a very few, doubtless) Kralori 'graduate' from the ITC, whereas Sheng would simply be consumed by it, worthless barbarian that he was. Pretty loaded test, of course. Many magic rituals less severe than this one would kill those not properly prepared for them.

> Much like the Danfive Xaroni, I think the IT camps care little for the
> enlightenment of the inmate. Rather they are concerned with getting the job
> done. These ar einmante scum, who cares if they are happy or seeking
> enlightenment? If they were good citizens, they wouldn't be there in the
> first place!

But DX serves that purpose nonetheless, regardless of how brutal or cynical a manner in which it's actually run.

> Yes they are, a method of punishing and using at the same time. The mystical
> aspect is not deliberate, because the gaining of mystical knowledge via
> extreme suffering is actually something that just happens, rather than being
> planned for.

I think the reverse: it's deliberately a mystical technique, and 'accidentally' a means of actual, unmitigated suffering, in some cases.

> I think this cannot be emphasised enough. Sheng Seleris is singular and
> unique in both the scope of his acomplishment and the completeness of his
> deliberate mystical failure.

Well, there's Oorsu Sara, perhaps... (Don't even _ask_ how many W's.) But that questionable caveat aside, I agree.

Only among the 'failures', though. Bear in mind other mystics have _successfully_ been Liberated, which is a step beyond what Sheng did (or could) achieve. (By one method or another.) Though none of them were smelly horse barbarians doing it by the well-worn seat of their pants, it must be said.

> The guy got all the way to the finishing line
> at the Olympics, was way ahead of the rest of the field and then stopped for
> a soda! Amazing!

But according to your analysis, there wasn't even an Olympics to be in, never mind him realizing he has been entered for the marathon... I think your metaphor is more accurate than you intended.

> 100% agreed. I doubt very much that anyone would put someone in a place
> where they would come out massively stronger, as a form of punishement.

Well, duh. ;-) But people didn't: they come out either broken husks, quite possibly dead, or if they're very lucky, having achieved some sort of mystical truth (whether the Ultimate one or not). Granted in hindsight this looks like a non-brainer on a par with building your temple on top of a large dragon (d'oh!), but given those prior outcomes, it seems pretty reasonable.

I'm told this theme, failed mystic abuses the wazoo out of his magic powers, is explored in Patanjali. Having never troubled to crack open the covers of same, can anyone comment?

Cheers,
Alex.


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