Instant torture

From: Svechin_at_cs.com
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:20:35 EST


David:
>The traditional digest debate with Peter
>I am not misunderstanding anything, thank you very much.
> Ah, yes. Of course. Thanks for clearing that up.
> You'll understand if I don't simply take your word for it, I hope.

Hey, no arguing, you know how much I dislike harsh words!

> As I believe about a sentence about the camps has made it into
>official sources, I'll be relying heavily on Martins original description
>of the camps, not that I take everything in that story as being necessarily
>true anymore, just the best info we have, not to mention the original
>appearance of the concept. Martin, please leap in if you feel I'm
>misrepresenting you at any point.

Will do

>>The instant torture camps where also very much a mechanism
>>of the state for punishment of criminals and disidents, as you might
>>expect.
>
>It is too cruel for such purposes.

> It is remarkable how cruelly states can treat their criminals and
>dissidents.

Their parallel on our world would be the concentration camp, the ethnic cleansing centre, the Khmer Rouge holiday resorts and the Gulag. Or how about Devils Island or Alcatraz or Australia (<shudder> endless showings of Neighbours, torture!) I could think of a fair few more (though none as scary as the last one of course:).

I would agree with David that the cruelty is not too extreme. Particularly as the Mandarins would see it as eminently justifiable for the scum that get sent there.

>Furthermore Kralorela would
>just simply execute such criminals for the Underworld to purify
>them.

> Doesn't have quite the same terrifying effect. Oh, and don't forget
>that like most such camps (certain real world examples notably), the forced
>labour is exploited for economic benefit (according to Martins view of the
>camps, anyway). Plus, in Martins story again, they gain magical power from
>the souls of those who die there, AND its a handy source of zombies.

Exactly. Much as the entire Verbande of the Death Camps used the slave labour at their disposal in WW2 to outfit the Waffen SS divisions with all sorts of equipment, I think the pragmantic Kralori would use the labour, spirits AND the bodies as a resource. Think how efficient it is and how much more effective than simply executing them. Perhaps the greatest terror for a Kralori is to die "out of place", his soul, once in an Instant Torture Camp has nowhere to go other than hell. He will not be with his ancestors! Total horror.

>>Sheng was not thrown in there because they wished to help his
>>spiritual progress, but because they wanted to hurt him.
>Which contradicts the published information that he volunteered
>for these camps, having served as an ordinary slave for a few
>years after his submission.

> It doesn't contradict the published information at all. Why do you
>think they allowed him to volunteer? Because they hated him, and it was the
>worst thing they could think of.

Again, I agree with David here. From the Kralori POV, they were damn sure that this would break him. After all, it brakes everyone else! Lets himble this arrogant barbarian and show him what real hardship is! Remember that the Pentans are very prideful of their toughness in comparison to civilised folk.

> Sheng had his own reasons for entering the camps - but to quote
>from that exact published source 'he volunteers for the worst punishment',
>apparently because in his pride he finds torture better than demeaning
>slavery. The Kralori do not think they are doing him a favour, they think
>they are taking him to the worst thing they can think of (not giving him a
>crack at the mystic big time).
> (in Martin Lauries story that originates the camps, he has a choice
>of entry only in that he could have chosen death instead. Some revision has
>occurred since then, but I think its pretty clear the camps were always
>intended as pure nasty).

Yes, and Shengs stay was meant to be the end of him. Like Big Brother, its not enough to kill you, they must break you BEFORE they kill you, to know that they had the ultimate triumph over your will and spirit as well as your body.

>I don't think the camp commanders, even if they exist, _bother_
>to check if an inmate is sufficiently enlightened to be released.
>The camp is supposed to be an all-or-nothing affair - no one is
>supposed to get out until they are enlightened.

> Sure. And it is generally expected that most never leave, just get
>tortured, probably until they die or commit suicide. In Martins story, no
>one has ever survived the torture camps before.

Much like the Danfive Xaroni, I think the IT camps care little for the enlightenment of the inmate. Rather they are concerned with getting the job done. These ar einmante scum, who cares if they are happy or seeking enlightenment? If they were good citizens, they wouldn't be there in the first place!

> There is a mystic element to the torture camps (and a fine mythic
>justification of them in Martins story, I think). But that doesn't mean the
>torture camps are a primarily mystic institution - there are a brutal tool
>of repression and punishment first.

Yes they are, a method of punishing and using at the same time. The mystical aspect is not deliberate, because the gaining of mystical knowledge via extreme suffering is actually something that just happens, rather than being planned for.

>And sure, Sheng used the camps as a
> pathway to mystic power - but Sheng was a unique individual, doing what had
>not been done before and that astonished his captors, and not just because
>he made a different response to mystic temptation, but also because he got
>that far in the first place.

I think this cannot be emphasised enough. Sheng Seleris is singular and unique in both the scope of his acomplishment and the completeness of his deliberate mystical failure. The guy got all the way to the finishing line at the Olympics, was way ahead of the rest of the field and then stopped for a soda! Amazing!  

>Just because Sheng uses the camps in a certain
>way, doesn't mean that everone sees them that way, or that that is how they
>were designed. If the Kralori believed that the Instant Torture camps were
>a likely source of so much potential power, would they have thrown a hated
>enemy slave in there?

100% agreed. I doubt very much that anyone would put someone in a place where they would come out massively stronger, as a form of punishement. They did it to prove the superiority of their ways, and they were suprised at the result.

Martin Laurie


End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #370


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