Me>>[Kralorela] do not have a massive state and bureaucratic apparatus.
>>There is only one bureaucrat for a thousand people and even if you
>>count in his helpers,
> One mandarin for a thousand people, perhaps, but they have such a
>large number of functionaries that they seldom have to deal with the public
>directly,
Get thee to a Judge Dee Book and look up Van Gulik's comments about how overtaxed the Mandarins were by their onerous responsibilities and the few assistants that they had. Kralori Mandarins do deal with the public from day-to-day - it is their _job_.
>and thats only those directly concerned with mandarin business,
>let alone those employed by the various arms of the well equipped army or
>various other state endeavours (those enormous bridges, for example).
Public works _is_ Mandarin business and the armed forces has its own hierarchy which is not concerned with the day-to-day government of Kralorela.
>>So why were you intent on a gulag system for the punishment of
>>the worst criminals
> By not a police state I mean they only use their gulags for the
>punishment of the worst criminals, not petty dissidents, unpopular
>minorities, and anyone who doesn't toe the party line.
And troublesome slaves are the worst criminals?
>The police operate
>according to the dictates of the legal system, not simply act to suppress
>the populace at the whims of the rulers.
There are no police in Kralorela and the legal system is whatever the Mandarin says it is.
>>And what do the Kralori _now_ use, given that those camps have
>>been abolished for two centuries?
> Transportation to ignorance? Freelance torture? They don't bother
>to torture/reform them, just execute them? A combination of the above?
>Improvise at the will of the mandarin?
But none of these punishments actually are anything like the ITC for its purported punishment of the worst criminals.
>>>But [the Kralori] do, for example, sack cities for not paying their
>>>taxes on time.
>>They do no such thing.
>>What is actually said was that the City of Sha Ming never pays it taxes
>>on time _and_ has been sacked by the Emperor's armies several times.
> You could choose to infer that the juxtaposition of those two
>phrases in the same sentence with an 'and' in between was not meant to
>imply any connection between the two whatsoever. I don't.
Then could you explain the circumstances of the sacking of Sha Ming during those two recent campaigns that I mentioned? Was it over the late payment of taxes? And was this a standard practice for _all_ Kralori cities as you alleged?
>>Hence the Kralori sacking of Sha Ming is not because the taxes were
>>late but because the province was revolting...
> which would, again, tend to indicate that they rule, not via
>goodwill, but via military force when necessary.
So? I said "Its rulers prefer to govern through goodwill...". I am well aware of the potential for martial law within Kralorela but the point remains that ITC as a brutal tool of repression is distinctly at odds with the philosophy that the Mandarins espouse - - such as their treatment of the Immanent Masters. Furthermore the army is the last insitution that one thinks of to control dissent because it is practically riddled with Immanent Masters.
>[Sheng] decided he didn't want to be a slave anymore, so they punished
>him.
Being a slave is _nonvoluntary_. Sheng can say that he will no longer be a slave all he likes, but most places will cure him of that attitude pretty damn quick without the benefit of any ITC. He was after at that time a common slave, not the worst criminal or dissident.
>Its not that they hated him in particular, but if he doesn't
>want to be a slave, he has to be punished.
However you say before: "Why do you think they allowed him to volunteer? Because they hated him, and it was the worst thing they could think of." So is Sheng hated for refusing to work? And was the ITC was the standard punishment for troublesome slaves?
> Sheng: 'I am not afraid of your punishments, bring it on. Give me
>the worst you've got. I will take any alternative to slavery.'
> Kralori: 'very well. Its for your own good, mind.'
Odd. I do distinctly recall being called mistaken because I had the temerity to suggest that the purpose of the camps was for enlightenment by one who felt that the camps were brutal tools of repression for the worst criminals and dissidents.
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