torture nearly ended, but still frenzying

From: David Cake <dave_at_starfish.net.au>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:27:39 +0800


Peter
>But you had implied that I believe something that I never even
>said (i.e the ITCs are much larger than the Gerran Cult) and
>attempted to dismiss my PoV on the implausibility of those
>grounds, i.e. a strawman.

        I can't even understand why you would think that (wasn't I the one argueing the ITCs where bigger?), so I'll just stop.

>>>The Frenzypeace practictioners are mistaken.
>
>> According to various orthodox mystics (well, Serd Marnad and Reha
>>Manari specifically). But does that mean that they are objectively wrong
>>from all points of view?
>
>Objectively they are wrong in what they claim is the result of
>their methods just as the Kralori are right in claiming to be
>dragons.

        The claim to gain mystic powers and insight through weird behaviour, and they do. Sure they can only get as far as Atrilith - did they claim something else?

>> Sure. Still amounts to a large state apparatus, though.
>
>No, it doesn't. Otherwise an anarchist commune could said to be
>a state if everybody gathers together to plant the fields.

        No, a levy is enforced much the same as taxes (in fact, often became interchangeable with taxes). If you are working because the government tells you to (whether its because of a levy, because they pay you, or because you are forced too) you are part of the state.

>> That some power is devolved doesn't mean its not a large
>>centralised state.
>
>But _quite_ _a_ _lot_ of power is devolved.

        Quite a lot isn't. Some armies, for starters.

>But nonpayment of taxes is not what we are debating. What we
>are debating is whether Sha Ming gets sacked for the _late_
>payment of taxes (which is the stronger sense of the statement
>in question) and that this is what Kralorela metes out to all
>such cities.

        Its a matter of degree. I don't think the Kralori sack them for missing arbitrary deadlines by a day or two, but if it gets late enough it amounts to much the same thing as non-payment, which is a challenge to the authority of the state. The difference between late payment and non-payment depends on the patience of the payee. The difference between non-payment and defiance is a matter of political interpretation.

        You seem to be hung up on this because you want me to say Sha Ming was sacked because it was rebelling, not just late? I don't see the distinction as particularly important - the Kralori rule over Sha Ming is maintained by serious use of military force when necessary, and they aren't afraid to do it again, and if they will do it to Sha Ming, they will do it to other cities (perhaps not as eagerly, I'll admit). Exactly how recalcitrant a city needs to get before the troops are sent in is a matter of degree, but the fact remains that the rulership of Kralorela is enforced by the threat of military force.

>>The good mandarins can say that they send only those who they know will be
>>genuinely reformed there, and decry its use by others.
>
>But the Good Mandarins are sending people to what, in your opinion,
>is a brutal tool of repression. Hence they are not really good,
>are they?

        Ah, the good mandarins send only those criminals who are so depraved that they could never be rehabilitated normally, and the ITC give even such degenerate scum a chance of enlightenment, a gift beyond price. So of course they are good. It would only be a brutal tool of oppression if used against those whose only crime was rebellion (which it is, but only by bad cruel mandarins).

>> Why? Perhaps we differ from each other in what I mean by
>>thoughtcrime. At worst its guilt by association.
>
>The practice of Immanent Mastery causes the practitioner to
>manifest draconic attributes.

        Which is a crime because...? (other than because the POIM do it and they are bad?)

>Which doesn't allow you to call people mistaken merely because
>their PoV differs from yours.

        This seems to have upset you a fair bit, as you have mentioned it twice. Given the offence you seem to have taken, I apologise. But its hardly the harshest languages exchanged on the digest, and several people have been told they are mistaken on the digest before without offence being given, including by you, so in my defence I submit that I didn't realise it was so contentious.

>Per capita, and I've made this comparison
>before, the Orlanthi are more governed than the Kralori are.

        I suspect any such comparison will come back to 'do the mandarins have a large staff that works for them or not' again, in which we already know that you have a different opinion to the Genertela book version of Kralorela.


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