> >Simply because the Rathori are still Hsunchen and view the formations
> >of the civilized people as an act of madness that was invented by the
> >Trickster.
>Who says formations are the result of "civilised" people? There are
>countless RW and Gloranthan examples of barbarians forming tight formations.
And how many hunter-gatherers are represented in these RW examples of barbarian tight-formations? Furthermore the Rathori have the bear as a totem and because of the bear's solitary nature, they live in smaller social groups than the Uncolings or the Telmori. This also inhibits any moves they make towards tight formations.
>I think it would be odd indeed if the
>Rathori were somehow immune to the evolution of military tactics.
They do evolve military tactics. However those that evolve such tactics are on slippery slope of making other changes that will lead to them becoming not-Rathori. Judging from Jonat Bigbear's epithet, the Rathori once dwelt south of the Janube. There's hardly any Rathori there now.
> >They do not have the tradition of standing fast as one
> >people in the face of danger - if knights charge them, the steps they
> >take are bloody great big ones to the nearest cover.
>Which would get them severely killed.
Agreed. However the Rathori would think the mistake was in standing on the battlefield so a knight could charge them...
>Firstly we know the Rathori raid into the civilised lands.
Erigia is not a civilized land and Janubia/Arrolia is so sparsely populated that it lacks the population to prevent the Rathori from making a career as raiders. The only other power around is the Kingdom of War and even the Rathori don't raid there.
>Secondly we know that they don't run as fast as a
>charing horse, thirdy, we know they would get ridden down if they did this.
>So why would they raid if this was the case?
The only neighbours (whom they raid) with decent cavalry are the CharUn. However CharUn cavalry is mostly light, meaning that they don't charge but prefer to skirmish instead. In which case a considerable advantage comes down to who has the better missile weapon, namely the Rathori.
Yes, CharUn cossacks can defeat an equivalent number of Rathori. But they have to find them first as a raider prospers by avoiding contact with enemy forces. To catch Rathori (and elf) raiders on the steppes, the CharUn will have to rely on scouts (either alone or in small groups), and the Rathori longbow is ample for dealing with these people.
>Come on Peter, do you honestly believe that [the Rathori] can be raiding
>civilised lands without picking up some form of military learning? I've no
>real world example where a culture who interacted with another militarily
>failed to do this, IF their tactics were getting them butchered.
Then what military innovations have the Lapps, the Siberians and the Ainu made?
> >The Rathori Longbow was a gift from the Elves of Erigia after the
> >Rathori graciously allowed them refuge within their woods. This
> >dates it to the First or Second Wane whereas mounted foes have
> >been in the Janube valley since the Dawn Ages.
>You just made that up.
Did I make it up? Yup. Did I just make it up? Nope. I made it up well over a year ago in a project for Issaries.
>The Rathori have had elves in that area for a long time
But a significant number of elves entered Rathorela after the Sky Burn and to cement the friendship with the Rathori, the elf refugees gave them a gift.
>AND given that form most of the period in between the early wanes and
>the present, they would have been asleep due to the Ban, how would they have
>become a Longbow culture so quickly?
There's over two hundred years between the Skyburn in 1279 and the Fall of the Ban in 1500. That's ample time IMO.
> >So has a hunting rifle (compared to a bow). Which should indicate
> >what I think a Rathori uses his bow most often for.
>[...] Yes, the Rathori would use the bow for hunting, but why
>would they ignore its potential in combat?
They don't. But the tight-formation etc. is something alien to their way of life even though there is a significant military advantage that can be gained in doing so. They just can't see the point.
>Consider a fight they get into
>with a bunch of Janubians. If they escape they return home and tell everyone
>how they outranged the enemy crossbows and how their rapid shooting took out
>many horses and men, thining the charge and breaking the attack. So they
>wouldn't learn from this?
Such a force would be extremely unusual for the Janubians. The Upper Janube valley is the equivalent of the Wild West, Siberia and Black Robe rolled into one. The cities and counties there don't have much in the way of armies, apart from "a small number of professional soldiers" and "ragged mobs of peasants and city dwellers" for self-defense.
> >I don't think the Rathori have much utility as mercenaries
> >considering their fighting habits. They are more useful as
> >scouts or trackers.
>Or skimishers or raiders.
Raiders yes, but I think they don't like battlefields.
>I do also believe that a large body of berserk bear/men would make
>rather a good shield wall breaker.
The only problem IMO is getting a large body of berserk bear/men. The KoW might develop such a unit and they certainly do have a regiment of longbows archers a la agincourt.
>I agree that primitive socieities do not develop overly complex tactical
>deployments _in isolation_ from other influences. The Rathori are certainly
>not isolated though and do take a very active part in the HW to come.
I do think they are isolated.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #518
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