TTrotsky:
> So, if I've understood you correctly, you're saying that when the Red
>Emperor dies, he is sufficiently weakened that there may be rebellions and
>attempts to put somebody else on the throne, which the 'new' Red Emperor
must
>overcome.
Yes. Also, he doesn't always come back immediately or convincingly. For a long time there were many who doubted he came back at all, especially after he started to appear "different" with Magnificus onward. This is why Magnificus had more problems than any of Takenegis returns, though Takenegi was in hiding for yonks too, from Sheng. Very few people knew he was Emperor and very few were _allowed_ to know until his plans matured. .
Consider this, the Emperor occasionally dies deliberately and then waits for his return to see how the Empire functions after his death. The longer he waits, the more he sees who jockeys for power and the easier it is to determine his real foes. He has to balance this against the chaos and destruction this causes but he is immortal and takes the long view on such things. He does make mistakes though, he ain't the Pope.
>The leaders of these groups - though not necessarily their
>followers - know what they're doing, but do it anyway because its the best
>chance they're going to get.
Yes. There are other reasons too. You have to remember that many of the higher ups in the Empire are heroes or deities in their _own right_ which creates the problem of many of them thinking they could do a better job, which is why Argenteus gets offed. The Emperor has many noble houses he pisses off and they might well take the chance, many have tried, some have even succeeded. IMO the Empire is balanced very finely politically, the nobility have many reasons fo rebel.
Centrifugal force.
>Clearly this is not a dull and uninteresting set-up, but is it as much
>fun as the Previous Version (for lack of a better name)?
There is no previous version. I commented on this to Greg and he asked me pointedly, did he at any stage in ANY of his writings on the Emperor, show him as having a life before the return of a new mask? I checked FS assiduously and found none, other than his initial genesis. On returning to Greg on this issue, he said and explained at length that the Emperor is singular and that is how he has seen him for a long time. All other views on it were speculation by fans. So yes, I could see your point, if there was a publication that said otherwise, but there hasn't been, other than fan and LARP stuff.
>IMO, no. Consider the LARP Life of Moonson. Had it been set up according to
>these new ideas (new to us, anyway) interesting things would likely still
have been >going on. Roan-Ur and his supporters would, I suspect, have been
one of these >rebel groups you're describing, attempting to put, as it were,
a Black Emperor on
>the throne to replace the Red one. Other characters would have been
>attempting to gain influence over the newly revealed Moonson, as well as to
>put down this rebellion and ensure the real guy got onto the throne.
Yes,, but the newly revealed Emperor is not necessarily the real Emperor. There could be a dozen people claiming this as it is well known that the Emperor returns in the oddest places and with the oddest appearances and support. Aside from those plotting with their own agendas to replace the Red Emperor, there would be vast doubt as to who he was anyway. Plus there could be significant heroquests to find him and his soul parts as well as eradicating proxies. In a sense the Emperors discovery would be like a whodunnit.
> But, at the same time, the overwhelming majority of characters would
>have sided with the real guy,
Once they knew who he was and agreed that he was the real deal. Not at all clear cut.
>there'd likely have been more a sense of inevitability as to who would
eventually >win and there would have been a lot less setting up of factions
and independent >action by relatively lowly characters (unless you can really
discredit or remove
I disagree. I was at the first Moonson LARP and it wasn't at all known to me that that the Emperor was chosen in the LARP via the method which he was eventually enthroned. I myself launched a coup attempt simply because I felt Shargash would be better ruling the Empire since Yelm was gone and they all (everyone) needed killing.
Perhaps now that the LARP has been played a few times, everyone knows the score, but I certainly didn't at the time. I didn't even know we could launch a coup until I tried it. No-one had advanced knowledge of what was going to happen or was possible until it happened.
>your boss you may as well do what he says, since you can't gain promotion
simply >by supporting a different candidate who might beat his).
I think this is assuming a lot of certainty in the Emperors return. The only certainty I see in the whole thing is that the Red Emperor is singular. Everything else is up for grabs.
>This isn't to say that the writers couldn't have come up with something
else, other >than the succession contests, to make a fun conclusion to the
game out of, but it >does, IMO, represent a less interesting situation than
the Previous Version.
I disagree. I think it would be different but no less interesting. There are thousands of possiblities from both options but one is no more interesting that the other, as long as the principle of human intrigue and machiavellian plotting is integrated into it, given the doubt and uncertainty that is present in the whole procedure.
Consider this.
When the Emperor dies, he might well take _weeks_ or even _seasons_ to reappear. I know that potential timelines for the HW period show the Emperor disappearing for nearly TEN YEARS before his return. Why is this? Well its simple. Some of the Egi are opposed to the return, they fight or break up the council. Someone steals artifacts that are needed for the Emperor to come back. Worse, someone starts assassinating key members of the Egi and replacing them with politically reliable members. I could go on. The "good guys" quest bravely to find the bad guys who may well even employ them. The artifcats are quested for, new ways are sought to return the Emperor to form and quests are launched to find his soul parts while others quest to destroy or claim them for themselves etc etc.
Less interesting? Personally I'd find this stuff just as interesting as anything in the LARP, if not more so and more epic in scope. But your Gloranthan will of course vary.
> Now, just because something is more interesting than the alternative
>doesn't make it true.
I contend with your assumption that the other way is more interesting. I don't think you've looked at all the possiblities fairly yet. Maybe you have and its just personal preference.
>Judging from Martin's postings, any chance for keeping things the way we had
>previously believed them to be is long gone.
There is no published material giving us something to believe in the first place. Even FS is not finsihed material and Greg happily changes bits of it as it evolves. The only thing you are going on is the LARP and Tales and Greg has never said that that is the true representation of the way the Empire works. I don't think Nick or the others have done that either. It was fun and entertaining but it's not canon and never has been. We have no canon alas, and we're trying to write it, which is about bloody time really. Twenty years on from RQ and we still really don't know how the Empire works!
>Which is a pity, but sometimes good ideas get ditched
What is good about an idea is subjective. And yes, some people will be annoyed because from their perspective, it is a good idea. This is inevitable.
>- although I don't understand quite *why* that's being done in this
instance.
Firstly the LARP view of the Emperor is simply one POV. Greg has another one and as he pretty much defined the Empire in FS and GRoY and is co-writing and publishing the Glorantha porjects, I guess if he feels that its one way then its one way. I don't know why this suprises people. Its not like he hasn't said openly to many folk that the LARP was fun but not entirely factual.
>Still, even if the old idea
>is Officially Wrong as far as new canonical Glorantha goes, there's no
reason
>we have to take any notice of it in our own games.
Shit no, what you do in your Glorantha is up to you. I have certainly never had a problem with dumping canon in a game I run if I don't like it and don't see why it should be a problem for anyone else. I guess what it boils down to is this:
What we publish becomes canon.
What is canon is widely believed by most gamers to be "true" and given that
"truth" it makes it rather hard for those who disagree with the canon to be
in the same ball park of arguing as those who agree with canon.
After all, what good does it do you to work like crazy on a region if a canon source comes along and blows it all out of the water?
This is the double edged sword of publishing in Glorantha.
We ALL want more product, we just don't want product that interferes or contradicts OUR view of the way things are.
I know fine well that some people will read my stuff and say "hey cool" while others will wish to insert an ice pick in my head, rather like your namesake. Again, this is inevitable. I only have so much time and space for the work and I can only attempt to write what I think is important. My concept of importance will not be the same as everyone elses. T'is life.
I'm avoiding saying that anything is _wrong_ in SGU, because I don't see the point. It is a waste of space I could use to write something new. Hopefully this will minise damage to contradictory work by others.
>I'm with MOB; I'll read the information on this topic in SGU as if its
>just the official political spin on how events transpire rather than an
>actual description of what's going on. Even if I'm not intended to ;-)
Sure. You can use the book for toilet paper too, though I'd feel sorry for your bottom if you did. As I said, your Glorantha. Bear in mind that if YOU were writing it or MOB was writing it or whoever was writing it, we'd all be disagreeing with them too. Greg has the same problem, its his goal to write canon and sometimes he disagrees with people and the shit hits the fan.
Martin Laurie
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