> IMO, this is certainly possible. You find out *after* the denouement that
> you were following a "False Proxy", or a "Gbaji-Resurrecting Dupe of Chaos",
> or a "Menshevik Revisionist", or whoever. At the time, you think you're
> doing the Right (Lunar) Thing to do.
I'd like to think so too. Now, I'll note for the nervous of Gregging, that this doesn't require a 'non-singular' (whatever that means, exactly) Emperor, just a high level of obfuscation as to the 'true singular emperor', up until the final reel. (Though technically I suppose this is a case of a Proxy 'becoming' the RE, it's one of a 'Proxy' actually _being_ him all along (if the trick works, applying the Hind Sight Feat as needed).
> Mirrors, masks and veils. Imperial high-fliers who are convinced they
> possess the Mandate of the Moon may realise that the current Mask is *not*
> the real Mask -- he could be a Proxy, and they themselves are the Real
> Emperor-in-Hiding.
Indeed. Was it you that impled that the GP and the 'Silver proxy' might shortly be going to have a small contretemps on just such matter?
> I don't like using "born" of these Mask/candidates at all. That leads us
> down a Tibetan Buddhist road (i.e. "Moonson is reborn as an infant when his
> previous Mask dies"), which doesn't appear at all appropriate given the
> documented history.
>
> The final stage in the creation of a Mask takes place on the Red Moon, and
> is when the Council of the Egi sanctify and elevate the various
> soul-fragments of Moonson into a new integrated manifestation. The mundane
> succession conflict (if any) which produces the Body of the new Mask is but
> a part of this process -- but it's the part most visible to mortals and the
> part which affects them most.
I share your qualms to some extent, but there's a range of things that could actually be occuring here; I don't thing the new body of the next Mask is created 'out of whole cloth', or whatever, but nor am I completely convinced that it's simply a single, previously mortal person, with an identifiable 'previous life', as Martin puts it. OTOH, I can imagine if one gets a truly 'outstanding candidate' Egi, the end result may be fairly 'heavily skewed' in his direction...
I think this is is the Coolest Option, since it means a sufficiently egocentric candidate (almost a tautology, no?) can cofidently hope that he will _be_ the new Mask, at least in some largish measure, while allowing the actual composition to be determined by the (other) Egi, by the eternal portion of Moonson, and/or by circumstances, in whatever proportion one likes. (And of course, mortal tinkering and circumstances are really just two sides of the same coin; cometh the hour, cometh the man, as it were.)
> > Third, and I suspect most crucially (or at least, about which I 'know'
> > the least) what's the state of the RE (or the portions thereof, as the
> > case may be) before, and after the ritual of the Egi?
>
> Before: not integrated. Dispersed in many parts throughout the Six Worlds.
> The part we humans worry about most -- the Body of the New Emperor -- is
> walking around alive and well, somewhere in Peloria. It's just been hit on
> the head by a Mandate of the Moon, and is probably somewhat stunned.
>
> There may also be various Proxies walking around who look just like the dead
> Emperor, think they are him (and that he hasn't died), and may *also* (just
> to add to the fun) be prime candidates to receive the Mandate and
> re-integrate the "deceased" Mask of Moonson in their own flesh -- and this
> only has to happen *once* in the whole of Imperial history for various of
> the more confusing Lunar memes to receive corroboration. ("There's no point
> killing the Emperor, as he comes back just the same!").
I like this, though again I think I'd prefer to say 'called to participate as a Key Egi', rather than a single precursor as such. (I'm not sure how many Egi there are these days, but I'm sure some are much (much, much) more Equal thans others.)
> After: mostly re-integrated. Any surviving Proxies must be hunted down and
> re-integrated to complete the new Moonson (NB: his personality and powers
> may change radically as this occurs). Any rival claimants likewise, although
> in their case "re-integration" is likely more cosmetic and less beneficial
> to either participant.
Sounds good to me.
> > Where does this fit into the usual 'timeline' for the death, rebirth,
> > testing, and (re-)enthronement of the RE?
>
> There ain't a "usual" timeline -- it's only been done nine or so times
> (Masks since Magnificus), and some of those appear to have been remarkably
> smooth, others fraught with fratricidal civil wars, conspiracies,
> assassinations and the like.
Well, I'm all in favour of an exhaustive enumeration, if that's your bag, or at least a 'case analysis'; what does, or what _can_ happen?
> > How much 'input' is there from mortal sources (to wit, those that can
> > be threatened, blackmailed, bribed, or otherwise 'influenced') in this
> > part of the process, and how does it effect the 'final product' of the
> > new Mask?
>
> There is surely a great deal of input from mortal sources. But they are
> playing with fire if they "twist" things too much, as there is Real Mythic
> Power behind the Red Emperor. However, due to the mysteries and
> uncertainties and evolving experimental nature of the Lunar Empire,
> ambitious nobles are always testing the limits, trying new things to see
> what they can get away with.
Seems fair enough to me.
> (While pious priestesses are trying to improve
> the process, cut out the unnecessary bits and enhance the end product:
> Building a Better Emperor!)
"TakenEgi... A Being barely dead. We can rebuild him: stronger...; faster...; better..."
> IMO, the new Mask will look like a successful claimant and possess
> recognisable elements of his personality, skills and interest.
Does he look and act, etc, in a manner resembling _a_ claimant, or would it be more Correct to suggest he might resemble some combination in some degree or other of one or more of the constituent fresh batch of mortal Egi?
> Perhaps the *real* losers of some succession conflicts are the nobles who
> thought they had won -- they've put "their" candidate on Moonson's throne,
> only to discover that he is now *Moonson*, and not their creation at all.
That appeals to me too. At the very least, this should be possible in the form of people trying to 'stack the Egi deck', anticipating it producing such and such an effect on the eventual Mask, and getting... well, who knows what?
Well, all in all, I have to say I was much more convinced by Nick's answers to my queries than Martin's (hint-hint), though I don't agree in every particular. I feel I have at least one clearish picture now, which will at least do until something better comes along...
Cheers,
Alex.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #591
Powered by hypermail