> What do I preceisely disagree with? The RE cult in Tales #16 and the
> succession system in the Moonson LARP.
(1) What, precisely, do you disagree with about the published Red Emperor cult?
It seems to fit the bill for what you desire: a small-membership cult of high-powered imperial courtiers and family members (that is, if we ignore the "token" cult ranks of Subject and Citizen, which confer no real benefits on their members), devoted to a singular Moonson, who is part-human and part-divine.
It doesn't say much at all about how Masks are identified, about Proxies, about succession crises, etc. The nearest it comes is in the account of Ignifer => Argenteus, and *that's* written in FS-style Lunar doublespeak, not bare-faced cynical/manipulative political materialism.
(That is to say, I believe that if Martin had read those *same* words about Argenteus' accession in FS, he would not be batting an eyelid, and would indeed be loudly explaining to us how they *prove* that Moonson is, was, and always will be, "singular". Which, of course, they do, if you read them that way).
(2) What, precisely, do you believe that you know and dislike about the succession system presented in "Life of Moonson"?
Since the game mechanics for this have not been published, and since from your earlier comments it is clear that you didn't pick up on several major elements of the freeform while playing it, I would like to know what you think you disagree with, rather than merely hearing ad nauseam that you "don't like it" (or, worse, that it "doesn't exist").
Walking through part of Martin's post in V7#590, paragraph by paragraph:
> When the Red Emperor was created the Genesis was of a single being...
Agreed. Doskalos' body became that of Takenegi. The Red Emperor was more than Doskalos before him had been. The single reincarnating entity that was created was Takenegi, not Doskalos.
> His role as tanist was effectively that of her proxy on earth...
Agreed, and a nice way of putting it. Later in this paragraph you repeat that Takenegi, *unlike* the Masks, reincarnated as someone who was clearly the same being. I think we all agree on this. It is not a disputed area. There do not appear to have been succession crises conjoined with identity crises during Takenegi's reign, nor would I want to try identifying them.
(NB: viewing each re-integration as a personal identity crisis for Moonson might be a profitable line of investigation. Schizophrenia, multiple personalities, etc. all nicely illuminate the Madness and Insanity that lie at the heart of the Lunar Way).
> The Masks came about as the Emperor became more Lunar and the Empire
> became more Lunar.
Agreed, though this seemingly "natural" evolution created a terrible crisis for the Empire. Just because the Lunar Way requires painful death and dismemberment before rebirth, doesn't mean that these are enjoyable for anyone concerned.
> The Takenegi form of the Emperor was much more of a DH ruler
> than the later forms...
I have long-standing caveats regarding this, which Martin is familiar with, and which are not germane to the Masks/succession issue. Suffice to say, if true, he had funny ways of showing how Dara Happan he was (conquering the Tripolis, carving up the land, stripping power from the nobles, changing the official language...)
That said, the rest of this paragraph (re: how much more "Lunar" the confusion of Masks is than the one-true-way certainty of Takenegi) is fine by me.
> The LARP shows Moonson as being a noble who became Emperor after
completing
> the rituals.
That *is* a simplistic interpretation of what happened, I agree. But have you been reading anything MOB and I have written here recently? I suggest you move beyond your facile, minimalist approach, and try to engage with our material on a deeper level.
> I agree with MOB and Nick that this is fun and playable from the
> players perspective, I think it is less theologically correct than a
> singular Emperor. So while their work is excellent if one follows
> their argument and approach, I disagree with the core theological
> concept of the Emperors form.
Hang on: "Life of Moonson" explicitly ended with a single Emperor (not multiple Emperors). And the Masks of Moonson are explicitly stated to take on different forms (not a single form). What on earth is the "core theological concept" which you are taking issue with?
> Besides, we know the history of the past Emperors and we know that future
> history will see the Emperor gone for good, so for _practical_ purposes it
> doesn't matter one whit if he isn't singular becaue noone will become the
Red
> Emperor in the future anyway.
So why are you buggering everyone around by insisting that he is (in some strange, undefinable, acknowledgedly fun-reducing sense) "singular", if it doesn't matter *at all* to you whether he is or isn't?
> The DHs see the Emperor as the Righteous Ruler accepted by Antirius. The
> crux issue here is the Red Emperors singular status. This is independant
of
> his DH Emperorship. I am talking about the core being who was born
Takenegi
> and became Emperor _later_.
Dara Happan Emperor -> Fire Part -> Antirius
Singular Red Emperor -> Great Self -> Takenegi
What, then, is your problem? This seems to resolve your "crux" neatly enough. Nobody would deny that *all* Red Emperors have had the Fire Part of Antirius (like many DH Emperors before them), and the Great Self (i.e. the Lunar Seventh Soul) of Takenegi, singular, unique and indivisible.
Only you, it appears, feel that Moonson has some weird non-Dara Happan and non-Lunar assemblage of Parts (neither Six nor Seven, but more or less depending on unexplained criteria); only you, it appears, feel that the Body Part of each re-integrated Mask *must* *necessarily* be something magical and wonderful and in no wise related to any "body" we're familiar with in the mundane world of Glorantha.
> For someone who appeared at a ritual in a small city (and had
> witnesses to the fact) [Artifex] seems pretty darn tough to be
> just a local lord making good.
Like Alex, I won't waste my time engaging with this straw man. I have never suggested or implied in anything I've said or written that Moonson's Masks are "just a local lord making good." The Emperor is *reincarnated*, dammit! Why, I wonder, does Martin want to waste our time with this diversion?
It appears (on my brief perusal) that Martin is trying to tell us that nothing interesting should be read between the lines of the "Fortunate Succession" (e.g. that the on-the-face-of-it *fascinating* events around Voracius' and Celestinus' accessions should be ignored as trivial). I would be utterly astonished if this is what Greg intended.
BTW, I can't see any problems with Joerg's post in V7#592 (Singularity of Moonson). All enjoyable, useful stuff.
I get the feeling that many of our problems could be resolved if Martin asked Greg to explain the Six (or Seven) Parts to him, with a copy of FS handy for reference. Until now, it appears he has been taking "The Red Emperor's Body" as being wholly equivalent to "The Red Emperor" -- a mistake few Pelorians (other than the hated Darjiini) would make.
:::: Email: <mailto:Nick_Brooke_at_btinternet.com>
Nick
:::: Website: <http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/>
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #604
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