I'd have called Beresford Ellis more socialist than a pan-Celtic. He's more socialist than yer median Irish Republican, anyway.
> Although loads of celtic nationalists decribe themselves as
> socialists.
Well, if we're going to have a fantasy 32-county Irish republic, we might as well go the whole hog and make it a utopia with no want, equality for all and fair youths and maidens dancing at the crossroads .
I mean, "We want a 32-county republic so Fianna Fail gobshites can get backhanders in brown envelopes from Shorts Aircraft as well as Dunnes Stores" is hardly going to get them flocking to the barricades, is it?
> The Democrat was written by a strange collection of pan-celtic
> nationalist types, socialists and trade unionists and campaigned to get the
> irish in britain involved in the trade union and labour movement;
I had an acquaintance who was in the Connolly Society as well; actually, ex-Young Unionist (!) called John Walsh. Y'know him?
(BTW, didya know that James Connolly worked for the IWW (the Wobblies) in the US for six years?)
> and to
> get said movements involved in human rights issues in ireland etc . Lots of
> historical essays etc. too. Peter's essays were always great for a
> rivetting read.
There was a glorious rant of his a while back accusing Cormac O'Grada (one of the best economic historians of the famine) of being a Brit-luvving revisionist 'cos O'Grada said in one of his books that if the famine would have been far less devastating if it had happened a few decades later. Having read said book on the famine, it's hard to believe that anybody could call O'Grada a revisionist.
> Provided you take history writing which casts one ethnic
> group as the bad guys and another as the good guys without any
> qualification, with a rather large dose of salt.
>
> These days after hearing guys in "historical" kilty get ups describe the
> "gallowglass" and other bands of scots mercenaries as heroic adventurers
> fighting abroad for fame and fortune. Then in the next breath claim that
> it's justifyable to dislike the english today * 'cos their red coats were
> "hired english thugs that raped and pillaged wantonly".
Not that Irish kerns or Scottish gallowglasses would have done *anything* depraved like that in their puff, of course.
> (conveniently
> ignoring the fact that many were scottish, and the Jacobite wars were as
> much scottish civil wars as wars of scotland vs england).
True. But the lens through which (most) Irish republicanism views history is very narrow.
> I don't think I
> could swallow enough salt to swallow this type of history.
Makes it hard to read most Irish history, 'cos of the distracting noise of the axes being ground.
> (Not that PBE
> ever went this far. And the "democrat" certainly didn't).
Nope, though Ellis' stuff on the Ancient Celts is seriously flawed (I'm less familiar with his more contemporary stuff). He's argued that you can't take classical accounts of the Celts (especially Caesar's or Tacitus' accounts) as they're pro-Roman pro-Imperialist anti-Celt propagandists. Makes it a bit hard to write balanced history if you ditch the primary sources that you don't like.
Think he's also argued that Njal's saga's account of the battle of Clontarf is wrong because Brodir (the killer of Brian Boru) was executed after the battle by disembowelment, which was not something noble, heroic, Gaelic warriors did.
Which would be fair enough, only Njal's saga says that the one who did the disemboweling of Brodir was a chap called Ulfhred. Not a Celtic name, IHMO.
Did he even read the primary source? Oh, but then we'd go from the battle of Clontarf being heroic Gaels fighting against bloodthirsty rapacious Viking proto-Brits to err...one bunch of Celtic and Viking aristocrats fighting another bunch of Celtic and Viking aristocrats over who gets to screw the peasants.
>
>
> Few conflicts in history can be resolved into simple "good guys and bad
> guys" particularly after the passing of centuries. As one of the Behan
> brothers (Domininc ? Brendan ?) sang:
>
> "two foreign old monarchs in battle did join/ each wanting their head on
> the back of a coin/ if the irish had sense they'd drown *both* in the
> Boyne/ and partition throw into the ocean/"
Sounds more like Brendan Behan. Didn't he do another one like: "God help the Scots/They will never be free/ Between them and England/Lies no sea".
>
>
> Off topic as per usual - Chris
>
> * ps don't get me wrong. Just 'cos I don't dislike the english, that
> doesn't mean for a moment I won't be dancing in the streets along with
> everyone else up here when Germany stuff them at Euro 2000. -I can hardly
> wait wait :-p
Aren't their cricket results enough for you? C'mon, there's only so much humiliation they can be expected to take. *snicker*
Hmmm...maybe the British Empire might be a good model for the Lunar Empire? (had to have one bit on-topic)
Kipling would have made a good Dara Happan...
Tom
Powered by hypermail