More on Orthopraxy and Hypocrisy

From: Andrew Larsen <aelarsen_at_facstaff.wisc.edu>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:41:32 -0500


> Subject: Re: Hypocrisy and Orthopraxi
>
> I think the one thing that didn't come through into this debate from my
> original post is what I mean by 'belief' in a god.
>
> What I mean is belief as in 'support', rather than just 'accept the
> existence of'.
>
> A hypocrite, IMO, is someone who uses a god as a 'slot machine'. Plug in the
> worship, pull out the abilities. When I first thought about Faith I wondered
> how a priest interviewing a prospective initiate would be able to determine
> whether the candidate really supported the god's views or whether he was
> just in it for the powers.

    This is reflected by how closely the subject embodies the virtues that the god favors. Again, this is a question of practice (seen broadly as what the person does) rather than what the person believes or thinks. If the person doesn't consider those virtues important, he won't be able to manifest those virtues in his life.

    In orthopraxic systens a person can be devoted to a particular god. For example, at the end of *the Golden Ass*, Lucius has become a devotee of Isis as the Great Mother. But this dedication takes the form of his asserting how powerful and wonderful she is. The whole reason that he comes to this conclusion is that he has been punished by the goddess for not respecting her. He's turned into an ass, and later on the goddess turns him back. So there's a strong element of contract here. He loves her because she's done things for him.

> Orthopraxi suggests to me that the god really doesn't give a shit - he's in
> it for the worship brownie points (however they reckon those things on the
> God plane). That's certainly one interpretation.

    I still think you're looking at this the wrong way. It's not a question of the god not caring about this issue. It's that the issue simply isn't relevant at all. When an engineer builds a plane, it simply isn't issue of what he thinks about the air or what the air thinks about him. What matters is whether he builds the plane according to the laws that allow it fly in the air. If he fails to keep to those laws, the air won't properly lift the plane. (Grossly oversimplified, I know.)

> Another is that god's peer into your soul, so there's no way you could be
> hypocritical, or that god-granted abilities simply don't work for you if you
> don't adhere fully to the god's beliefs.

> Richard

    The Gods of Glorantha don't have the sort of power to read their subjects thoughts. They're not omniscient. A few gods, like the Red Goddess and Lankhor Mhy might have that power, but not the majority of them by any means.

    I'll buy that failing to live up to the god's laws might invalidate Rune magic and other special abilities. That's perfectly in keeping with the contract model.

> From: simon_hibbs_at_lycosmail.com
> Subject: Re:Hypocricy
>
> Roger Nolan :
>

>> I think that this is one case where Earth religion is not a good model for
>> understanding Gloranthan religion. I don't see that the sort of Faith
>> (capital intended) that is central to all Earth religions is ever something
>> that a Gronthan theistic culture needs. I don't need faith to believe in
>> Orlanth because I can go and see him every so often. Similarly, as Douglas
>> pointed out, it'd be might scary to visit the GodPlane with your fingers
>> crossed behind your back.

>
> But people in the ancient world were equaly convinced of the existence of
> the divine being they worshiped. After all storm, the sun, rainfall, etc are
> real phenomena that had a direct effect on their lives. They believed, as
> many people still do, that they had real personal experiences that proved
> the validity of their religion. They also commonly believed in the existence
> of the gods of other cultures. The Romans were notable in this regard.
>
> Having said that, knowing that Orlanth exists and is real is a long, long way
> away from being devoted to, or worshiping him. The lunars also believe Orlanth
> exists, for example. What they do not believe is that he is worthy of
> worship, or has any moral authority. This is where faith comes in.

    Exactly. Well said.  

> Andrew Larsen :
>

>>> Using the God's power without giving them sincere worship is exactly the
>>> sort of this which got the God Learners into trouble - for this reason
>>> alone, I would imagine most people would avoid it.
>> 
>> Yes, but I think it's still possible.  It must be extremely rare,
>> because in a world where gods are as deeply immenent as Glorantha, anyone in
>> a cult is likely to have some degree of 'belief' in a god.

>
> Certainly belief in the existence, potency and importance of the god. I
> think devotional worship requires an additional emotional commitment and
> belief in the god's moral authority and 'rightness'. As an Orlanthi I might
> believe in the existence of Humakt and believe that he is a terrible and
> dangerous god, to be placated. As an Initiate I might additionaly believe
> that Humakt is an ideal for warriors, who are necessery for the survival
> of the clan and be a loyal follower of Humakt's way. A devotee must have
> a much greater commitment to Humakt as a personal ideal, and faith that
> the terrible things that HYumakti do realy kmust be done for the greater
> good whatecver the apparent consequences. It's a mater of trust.

    Hmmm. Perhaps. That still seems quite close to the orthodoxy model, but I suppose it's a good compromise between the two positions.

Andrew E. Larsen


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