>>>IMO, Malkioni Wizards use 'sorcery'. They are in fact 'sorcerors', and
>>>they dominate Malkioni society.
Me>> But the issue was what would the _Malkioni_ themselves
>>say?
>I know ; which is why I said 'sorcery' in brackets : for three reasons.
>1) I believe that that is what malkioni magicians call >themselves :
>'sorcerors' (ie Wizards are a kind of 'sorceror' IMO)
There's a trap here. The Westerners may not believe themselves as practitioners of sorcerous magic (while they certainly do admit Zzaburi to be the same). Thus wizards are practitioners of sorcerous magic is not a proposition that automatically follows: some Malkion would agree, others won't (and a cut section had the God Learners implying that they weren't).
>2) 'sorcery' and 'wizardry' are both 'magic', and all three are
>translations of a single concept in Brithini IMO (but this might be wrong)
Well, the Zzaburi would agree. But I don't believe most Malkioni use the same word for 'sorcery' or 'wizardry'.
>3) Xavier's problem is that the words 'wizard' and 'sorceror' are both
>translated into French as 'sorcier' (but 'magician' is 'magicien').
*groan*. I hadn't realized how perfidious Albion could be... Theurgist might be a better translation of Wizard then.
>Well, on p. 53 it says that the Malkioni 'recognize the existence of
>spirits and divinities', but that 'these entities are apparitions caused by
>a defective understanding of the Cosmos' and that 'use of proper wisdom
>reveals that the Invisible God is the True Source' etc...
>This is of course written from a God Learner perspective (and >therefore a
>deist one),
Actually it's a generic Malkioni perspective. I've refrained from stating exactly _whose_ understanding is at fault (is it the worshipper or the spirit that he worships?) in an effort to fashion a proposition that most Malkioni would agree with.
>but it implies to me that the Malkioni
>(whether atheist or deist) believe that other forms of magic are actually
>debased or misapplied forms of 'sorcery' ie 'magics from the Sorcery
>Plane'.
Yup. They _could_ understand it that way. But it's not a given IMO (and I think Zzabur disagrees).
>>where the
>>different types of Western Magic is described: Veneration
>>(which uses worship), Philosophy (using Logic - although
>>note the above caveat) and Sorcery (which uses the Will).
>>That is the Malkioni statement of how they perceive their
>>magics.
>A God Learner statement surely ... ?
A Malkioni statement. This sections are written from what a Malkioni would say about what he believes, how his magic works and what happens to him after death. A related section details a blinkered history, the catergories of people he perceives. If I had been writing God Learner, it would have looked different.
>Well on p. 50 of Glorantha it says that 'a large number of people are
>atheists, not believing in a god or God, but in impersonal forces that can
>be exploited by sorcerors. These are mostly remnant Brithini ... '
>So TotRM 13 is incorrect, and the Brithini don't believe in God ?
It depends on what Greg means by "believe". A statement of worship is implied to my ears although I can assure you that I would have written the passage differently.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #754
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