Hey, keep cool Mikko !
No-one wants to ruin your Glorantha !!
:-)
Peter & Mikko :
> > >The sorcery plane in itself is acceptable, but the sorcerers being
> > >utterly dependant on sorcery nodes and their ready-to-channel-fill
> > >-your-talisman-here spells isn't.
One really ought to understand that the sorcery rules in HW *do* present an accurate portrait of sorcery ; but that it is also a very abstract and in many ways misleading one.
They describe *pure* sorcery ; but there are many, many variants of it IMO, and many deviations from that basis.
At the risk of starting another endless debate, my opinion is that monotheist
'miracle-working' (or whatever your own pet name for 'wizardry' is)
is a deviant
form of sorcery.
While all sorcery *does* come from the sorcery nodes, many sorcerors
(especially
the least-well educated ones) could access those nodes indirectly (not counting
Talisman use), and many would have cultural or college or covenic (is this a
word? somehow, I doubt it) or charismatic or eucharistic or New-Born
Malkioni or
whatever local method to gain access to the source of magic.
Even power crystals and magic points if you like (but in HW you'd
have to rename
them Action Points).
The thing is that the fully accurate description of sorcery is such a HUGE job, that no-one except for Sandy (and even his very good start is a *very* partial description) has ever felt motivated enough to sit down and take the necessary time to do it properly.
Who's to blame ? The thousands and thousands that buy D&D and WW products instead of vastly superior Gloranthan ones ...
> > Where else do you propose sorcerers get their magics from? If
> > it could be done from the mundane world and the simple reading
> > of books, then every gloranthan could do it.
Erm ... it *can* be done from the mundane world and by reading books. This is
one of the ways that some Mostali do sorcery. A very inefficient
method, though,
and indirect access of sorcery nodes in most cases anyway ... but I understand
that there are unusual, deviant & defiant sources of sorcery *within* the Inner
World, if I've interpreted some ambiguous Greg-sayings at all accurately.
(sorry, no examples !!)
Just a quibble anyway : basically, you're right.
> Simple?!? The sorcerer relies on his own authority, and strenth of will to
> force the natural forces and principles to bow to his will. The sorcerer
> must know exactly what he is doing, and is confidence in himself must be
> absolute.
But the natural forces and principles that you mention come from the sorcery plane.
The deist Malkioni say that they come from God.
> This sounds easy to you?
Nope.
> Relying on your own knowledge and power is
> easy, compaired to channeling a ready spell from a node? It sure doesn't
> to me
But you are forgetting that sorcerors *study* to gain their Arts, and that only a few *very* exceptional individuals might have a totally individualistic relationship with their sorcery (very satisfying as player characters, natch). Virtually all sorcerors instead learn their magic within a tradition and base their spells on authority and culture. This also is difficult, because in most cases (the exceptional case here being the spontaneously orthodox student) they must submit to the weltanschauung of their Masters if they wish to perform the Arts that their culture of sorcery can provide.
These schools, covens, colleges, laboratories and whatnot provide static,
pragmatic, and (more or less) well-studied paths of access to sorcery nodes
(that are actually the otherworld echoes of the school itself) and to
repeatable
sorcery spells.
Alternative methods exist, but they are much, much less effective.
Unless you are a genius, like Zzabur.
> > > > [Sorcerers] still [rely on their own Will to shape the universe
> > > > with no help from spirits or channelled energy from the gods]
> > > > according to the Glorantha Intro.
> >
> > >Their gods are called saints, or ancient sorcerers.
> >
> > Saints are a wizard thing whereas the ancient sorcerers are
> > teachers rather than worshipped entities.
Quibble : IMO they 'were' teachers, and they 'are' accepted (or not!) writers/philosophers/theologians.
> I refer to the entities who begat the nodes, and whose spells even the
> _sorcerer_ utilizes.
These entities are actually the various traditions of sorcery.
whether personified or not.
> This helps a bit, but is seriously vague. I also think the sorcerous
> orders and wizardly monasteries create and research new spells, and aren't
> just limited to the magic of their founder or a saint.
Indeed : often referred to by one's political opponents as 'heresy', 'blasphemy', and 'Burn the witch !! Burn him ! Burn him !!'
> The founders
> principles and theories do shape the approach and emphasises of his/her
> deciples and followers, but surely they carry on his/her work.
Certainly ; but disciples and followers are a tragically conservative and unimaginative lot, generally ...
So it's a slow process at best !
> > >The Hero Wars sorcerer does not use his own skill, but channels
> > >a ready spell through his talisman.
An excruciating distinction IMO
> > Skill is a RQ3 rules artifact and you won't find any mention
> > of it in the sorcerer-eye's view of his magic. The act of
> > learning and casting spells is still an act of will and stated
> > so in the HW rules.
I fail to see that this shouldn't involve some measure of 'skill'.
Either in RQ3, or in Sandy's Rules, or in HW, or in Glorantha.
> But the feel and spirit of the sorcerers and wizards shifts considerably,
> and not for the better or more interesting IMO.
Agreed and disagreed at the same time.
The rules are less interesting, but the (poorly explained) sorcerer-eye's view is far better, once you've a handle on it (currently, quite hard to get).
> The wizard's power was not dependant on his god.
Nor is it now, actually : why do you think they organise all those Ecclesiastical Councils and divergent colleges ?
Because they know that they're accessing a power that they don't truly comprehend by using their own unenlightened skills (well ; unless they're fanatics). Hero Wars hasn't changed this : just made it more ambiguous and interesting and complex. A good thing IMO.
> > What then were magic points?
>
AKA HW Action Points.
cheers,
Julian Lord
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