David Dunham:
>me> When did those Orlanthi reach Umathela? (...)
>
>This was well before the God Learners, it's actually at a time when
>the Waertagi still ruled the seas.
Yes, there's the 'Cities of Jrustela' article on the Issaries site. The Waertagi brought several (dragon?-)shiploads of Slontan barbarians on the southern coast of Jrustela and they founded a city state in Arshu Phola near a sacred cave. They were poor sailors but dabbled in piracy, so the Seshnelan colonists destroyed them. Many sought refuge in nearby Umathela.
They may have fled when Gbaji invaded Slontos, after Orlanth told them of the Promised Land or something like that. Today they are 1,200,000 according to Tales #10. Looks like they fared quite well in the big forests.
>Exactly who is a Lightbringer is sometimes vague -- is Yinkin (see
>Hero Wars p.65)?
Many gods weren't on the full Quest but helped the 7 at one time or another. Now, who was on the full quest may vary according to the places. Funny that the page number tallies with my French version.
>Also, you'll note that in the standard LBQ, the 6 go
>to the Underworld and find a 7th. In my Umathelan LBQ, the 6 go to
>the Underworld and find 3 more (who were on their own quest).
This is more reasonable than my ramblings. :) In the usual LBQ, the 7th is a special one. If i understood well, it's the band's wyter. In usual Orlanthi myths, the coming of the 7th sets the ring. I think it's meaningful that the last Lightbringer be the wyter. Did the Umathelans' ancestors worship 9 LB as well or were they added later? Maybe they found new LB when they arrived in Jrustela/Umathela, and heroquested so as to integrate them to the ring. This is interesting because if they did so, surely they have one or more great heroes, who performed the heroquest - which may have been a partial LBQ ending when the increased band found its wyter and formed the ring.
I suspect that the Jrusteli wouldn't swallow the 9 Lightbringers. They'd preferred them to be 7 so as to preserve their precious Monomyth. Once the little problem of 7 LB was fixed, they realized it was funny that the Umathelans' LB were nine in the first place. So maybe they tried to do the same again with a god of their creation, Jogrampur. (No...)
Julian Lord on Wenelia:
>Orlanth the Boar and Orlanth the Lion are not in fact a pig and a lion
>with Storm powers ; but instead two forms (and two or more Haranding
>subcults) of Orlanth.
>Very probably Orlanth Thunderous. Can't really say more than that, but
>ST will make this somewhat clearer.
The overwhelming storm-father of the forest who takes the shape of every animal and blows over the treetops sounds quite good and there's room for thousands of local variants.
Julian Lord:
>Orlanth the Lion has absolutely nothing to do with Basmol.
Why not? There were Basmoli in Maniria long ago. Maybe today in Wenelia no one remember, or no Orlanthi is aware of this, but they used to have big confederations all along the way from Seshnela to Prax. There are remnants in Prax and ruins in Seshnela, and some of the Seshnelan Basmoli migrated to Basim in Ralios. What happened to the Manirian Basmoli? Isn't it funny that Orlanth the Lion exists among the Wenelians?
>OTOH, the old Trade Route in the Voilor most likely stretches between Bath
>and Fort Digger, and then down the Darkel river : pretty southernly,
>really. I think that the Traders main forts in the Solanthi valley must
>have been Peelo and Yellowstone, so as to control
>the rich sothern area between Bath, the Howler, the Pelushi, Troll and
>Ice Mountains, and the Temple of Peace.
I agree, maybe they used to dig for gold in Fort Digger. Yellowstone and
Donali are large enough so that the Trader Princes have important estates
there. The Temple of Peace is a funny place, it seems to me that it's a
temple, and that the residents like peace... Maybe it's a place where the
Traders or another group made peace with the barbarians, or more extensively
the powers of the land.
Maybe it's a very old temple, created with a hope to soothe the land goddess
of her pain, anger and madness.
>Tallcastle is actually a bit of an oddity. A Trader Prince's fort in the
>middle of an Aldryami forest to control local human barbarians ? (...)
>My theory for this place is that it was originally *grown* by the Aldryami
>as their own stronghold against the Traders, but they lost it.
Right. Surely the barbarians didn't dwell that close to Arstola. Nice theory.
>Perhaps : I inferred from TotRM info that trade along the South Coast was
>dominated by Westerners though (and the Closing - which is still in effect
>despite Dormal's ritual - still forces most mariners to hug the coast), and
>my assumption has always been that the Trader Princes abandoned the inlands
>to set up shop & port on the South Coast (they must, after all, have gone
>somewhere). An error of strategy, certainly, to leave the inlanders such a
>free hand in the upper valleys ; also, rather bad luck that the Ship
>appears in the Sky a few years later to finally end the Closing and make
>those ports virtually useless to everybody but those inland tribespeople
>themselves : and sandwiching those same Newcoasters between inlanders,
>uplanders, islanders, pirates, Aldryami, mermen, and Waertagi. Ouch.
I don't understand. Er... Which Ship in the Sky? Is there an event that
_really_ ends the Closing and makes brave Dormal useless? Are the Waertagi
sailing up the Sky Dome returning from Hell and falling on the sea like
meteors? (Or <gasp> spelljammers..)
Why would the ports be useless if the Closing ends? Is it because the
Waertagi are coming back and clearing the sea of other ships?
Which issue of TotRM is it? Sea Special or #19 or before #10?
:-?
>Looks like Peelo & the Pelushi Volcano have a similar origin : IMG I had it
>as a non-Solanthi settlement taken over by the Traders, and recently
>transformed into a port by the Prince of Maldros and his knights, freshly
>retreated from various inland positions.
It's fine for me, though IMG i'd have the poor Prince of Maldros ousted from Peelo by the Smelchite pirates during their brief time of hegemony over the Mournsea. After this, the Duke of Pasos and Pharaoh, who made a pact against the pirates, had to agree that the New Coast settlements would be free. The Pharaoh was furthermore bound by his promise the Holy Country wouldn't try to expand oversea, after the Kralorelan disaster. Unfortunately the Trader Princes had no word in the deal, and the new Merchant's Guilds in Peelo and other ports scorn them now.
>The Ditali are a complex bunch.
(neat stuff snipped)
Additionally, i think the Lunars are very interested in the Ditali and Solanthi raiding Esrolia. Most important raids occured after the Building Wall disaster and surely the Lunars had a hand into this bag of knots. In every big town of Solanthi and Ditali lands they've got missionaries insidiously preaching war. Major raids are unheard of until 1609 ST, though i wonder why. IMO this must have something to do with the Lion clans' rise in Solanthiland. The Trader Princes, who've been driven away from the coast, are now losing all control because Greymane and later his sons are rallying the clans and even some of the Princes' own agents in Ditaliland.
Andrew Barton on logic:
>These statements all derive from progress in mathematical logic and model
>theory as developed in the twentieth century. It's unlikely that anyone in
>Glorantha would know of them.
Neither do i, though the topic seems to be fascinating. But no one in the RW would know of the progress in magic and heroquest theory :) that led the Godlearners to their downfall. Maybe the Godlearner's discoveries were very empiric, but it seems they've digged quite far into the secrets of Glorantha.
Me:
>>I suppose some Godlearners were aware that basic axioms were unprovable,
>>and messed up a lot with Glorantha's axioms as to devise powerful spells
>>and heroquests and Flying Pig Gods. 'Hmm. Let the others play with the
>>Monomyth and see what's going to happen if i use this axiom instead of
>>this one. After all, you can't prove which is true'. This realization was
>>lost to Malkiondom with many other things when the Cosmos set things back
>>in proper order.
>
Peter Larsen:
> It occurs to me that this is a pitfall that has affected more than one
>Gloranthan culture. When Malkioni sorcerors work down the chains of magical
>"proofs" until they reach the nihilistic realization that it doesn't
>matter, that x can be exchanged for y, they disrupt the ballance of the
>universe. Similarly, when Nysolarian mystics worked down the conceptual
>chain to the realization that "nothing is true; all is permitted," they
>engaged in appalling practices. These annihilatory realizations are not
>necessarily evil, but it takes a strong character to avoid moral
>corruption. I wonder if theism and animism have similar pitfalls?
The Lunar Way is mostly theistic, though their moral corruption may derive from their mystical insights into Nysalor's old teachings. The Godlearners walked the paths of the God and Spirit Planes during their researches, but they relied on logical, sorcerous bases indeed.
I think theism and animism rely on strong convictions and ties to the gods, spirits and the Compromise. The full power of human mind finds a better outlet on the sorcerous and mystical paths. The rules are easier to break. Gods and spirits find it easier to prevent people from doing that. If you don't behave well, you have no magic. Unless your gods are _really_ easy-going. Surely the Red Goddess is, illuminated as she is. Other pitfall, the EWF Draconists learned Draconic powers and eventually used them without following the rules that the Dragons followed.
Once the magic works independently from its source, moral hazards arise. The only way to avoid them is to stick to the rules. The Brithini and Eastern Mystics are good (though extreme) examples in respectively sorcerous and mystical views. I'd say, though it may not be a surprise, that the more firmly you stick to stern rules, the more you can display powerful magics if needed. Frx the Brithini blasted the Godlearners' armada when they tried to invade Brithos.
Jerome
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #305
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